Please visit the Club's website https://www.dloc.org.uk/ to join. Visit https://www.dloc.org.uk/adhoc to DONATE towards the cost of the forum.
Please don't post someone's email address to avoid it being harvested by spambots and it's against GDPR regulations.
Always look at "ACTIVE TOPICS" to see all posts in date & time order as they are sometimes moved; or look at "Your Posts".
Please add Reg. nrs. when posting a photo or anything about a car as this will help searches. Don't add punctuation next to nr. as this negates search.
CHANGED YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS since registering?, click your username and check your address in User Control Panel, Profile, Account Settings.
If you want help to register, use "contact us" at page bottom for help.

Insurance Valuation

Technical issues not related to a DLOC car marque, eg tyres, ethanol, other car makes, etc. and legal, political and insurance
silverdart
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:49 am
Location: West Midlands

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by silverdart »

Hi Chris, I have 2 Darts on a combined policy and for the last 3 years I was with Hagerty. At the last renewal they wanted £432 total and the pics. were reqd. every 3 years.
I am now with Abbeyfields Ins. brokers and have an identical combined policy which cost me £190 total. As it is my first year I am not sure if the pics. will be an annual requirement.
Incidentally, I had a quote from Peter James who uses the same underwriter as Abbeyfields and the P J quote was £357.
It obviously pays to shop around!

Dave.

Chris_R
Wise Man
Wise Man
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:48 pm
Location: Twickenham

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by Chris_R »

Many insurance brokers will accept self-certification for agreed values, along with photographs. Decide for yourself what you think it would cost you to replace the car with one of as near identical condition as your own if the worst happens and it was a total loss and use that amount for the value. No valuation cost at all.

clevitt
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 1:02 pm
Location: West Hertfordshire

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by clevitt »

Thanks Dave and Chris—- I’ve never understand the requirement for third party sign off for a revaluation. The premium increased when I moved to an Agreed Value policy, which is fair enough as the potential payout increases for the same level of risk. So I’ll ring around tomorrow with the emphasis on self certification rather than a lower premium.
Chris

classiclife
Classic Wise Man
Classic Wise Man
Posts: 1601
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:55 am
Location: Ridgewood - East Sussex
Contact:

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by classiclife »

clevitt wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:11 pm I’ve never understand the requirement for third party sign off for a revaluation.
Impartiality is the reason why a third party assessment is preferred and often required by insurance companies.

Part of my earlier thread, suggested that DLOC should be providing the AIV service and as mentioned by Colin - that role could be fairly undertaken and discharged by club registrars, pertinent to their model responsibility.

In the event of a claim, a self assessed valuation is going to be subject to intensive questioning / shredding by an insurance company. Their view will be, anyone can come up with a figure to suit their needs and in the majority of cases that view will be correct.

Non-substantiated AIV's are likely to be not worth the paper its written upon, unless endorsed by an impartial third party assessor. The net result of that will be an owners car reverting to Market Value, by the insurance company when pursuing a claim, and that is a situation best avoided at all costs.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

Chris_R
Wise Man
Wise Man
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:48 pm
Location: Twickenham

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by Chris_R »

That's not the case Richard. Once an agreement is in place and accepted by the insurance company it is part of the agreed contract. Unless there are overriding factors that you did not declare, if they try to change it then it will be breach of contract and the Financial Ombudsman would take a very dim view of that.

Agreed value works both ways. It places a limit on the liability of the insurance company but unless it is maintained by the insured it can become out of date. I've written on this before but the fundamental principle of insurance, and a point that has been regularly endorsed by the Financial Ombudsman, is that the insurance company must put you back in the position you were in before the loss. An agreed value places a limit on that position that you have agreed to and the insurance company agrees with. For most cars there are enough changing hands to have a feel for whether a value is reasonable or not. Hagerty (and probably the classic car magazines) quote a Daimler SP250 in excellent condition with a value around £43,000 and concours around £56,000. If you supply photographs of a car that is clearly from the photographs not in concours condition and ask an agreed value of £60,000 eyebrows will be raised and questions asked. It is unlikely you would get it. There are several on sale at the moment for around £40,000 - £45,000 with one at £32,000. Requesting an agreed value for your, lets say good but not excellent, car around the £30,000 mark would be reasonable and be accepted.

If you don't have an agreed value in place then it reverts to Market Value and this can work in your favour but it will be incumbent on you to prove your loss. For classic cars there is no official book of values to refer to and there are specific rules that insurance companies must follow when agreeing an appropriate value. These again have been laid down by the Financial Ombudsman. I have successfully gone through this process myself on a claim and can vouch with the right information it works. Essentially you need to have a record (photographic will do) of the condition before any claim and then you must have evidence of similar vehicles sold prices that demonstrate what it will cost you to replace the car. On my claim the insurance company valued the vehicle (a 1995 Classic Range Rover "softdash" 3.9 Vogue SE) at £1300. Damage was estimated at £2600 so they offered me £1300 write off value which I of course declined. The insured is under no obligation to take the offer. With the evidence I had I was able to show that it would cost me at least £7,000 to replace my Range Rover with an equivalent model. I presented the evidence, quoted the rulings from the Financial Ombudsman, was able to prove that the claim for £2,600 was substantially less than the write-off value and had a cheque for £2,600 within a week. You are also under no obligation to get the car repaired where they specify and that does not affect what the insurance pays out. It took some time but a fellow member in the Jensen Owners Club also followed the same process after a car fire and more than doubled the settlement from the insurance company by proving the market value of an equivalent condition car and therefore being able to quantify his loss. The insurance company has no option at that point except to pay out.

Another important point that I have mentioned before is that many of the insurances are underwritten by KGM. In the event of a total loss payout the car becomes the property of the insurance company. Salvage rights in policies mean you have the right to buy back the car for a salvage value. KGM have an agreement with salvage companies that will return a certain percentage of the write off value of a car to the insurance company. This is a percentage of the right off value. For a write off value up to £10,000 it is 30% so in the event of a write off, it will cost you 30% of the payout. Between £10,000 and £25,000 it is 40%. I don't know the percentage above £25,000. If you were offered a £10,000 settlement and wanted to retain the car for salvage that would cost you £3,000 leaving you £7,000. If you then negotiated the write off settlement up to £11,000 your salvage buyback would be increased to £4,400 actually leaving you £400 worse off!
The salvage buy back value has nothing to do with the actual value of the car, but has everything to do with the write off settlement agreed.

silverdart
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:49 am
Location: West Midlands

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by silverdart »

As it happens KGM are the underwriters for the Company I am with.
Another interesting point is that about a year ago the top line value on the Hagerty valuation tool was £74000 for a concours Dart. As stated above it is now £56000. I wonder if this is yet another situation caused by covid?

Dave.

classiclife
Classic Wise Man
Classic Wise Man
Posts: 1601
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:55 am
Location: Ridgewood - East Sussex
Contact:

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by classiclife »

Hello Chris,

Thank you for your post, informative as always and I understand all the points you have made in the various paragraphs.

By chance, I had occasion to contact Peter James (PJ) as the insurance policies required renewing for my 3x classics.

I raised the question about self assessed AIV applications and those carried out by third party independent assessors. These either being via an acknowledged company or as a result of an accredited classic car club nominee - such as TSSC provide.

PJ state that they will accept self assessment valuations up to a maximum of £15K with supporting photographs and documentation. Any insurance claim up to that amount, are 99% honoured without question and paid in full.

However, should a self assessed AIV assessment in excess of £15K be submitted, the company will bounce it without question - stating that such a proposed AIV application must be completed by a qualified independent assessor. Of note, the majority of insurance companies sign-up to the same guideline.
PJ added {as one example} that if they allowed high value self assessed AIV applications to be unregulated, it would allow a precedent of "crash for cash" write off claims.

As mentioned earlier, this is why I feel that the DLOC should start to put measures in place to create a bona-fide regulated internal AIV assessment service, on behalf of its members. Bearing in mind that the vast majority of DLOC vehicles have an insurance valuation greater than £15K, it seems a pragmatic and common sense direction to take. The club must serve its members and not members serving the club.

When dealing with insurance companies, having the backing of your classic car club often presents a better stance than trying to do so on your own merit.

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

User avatar
John-B
Site Admin
Posts: 1755
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:10 pm
Location: Salisbury, UK
Contact:

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by John-B »

I've always insured my Dart via RHspecialistinsurance.co.uk for a self-assessed sum over £30k and never had a request for an independent valuation. It is for limited mileage and they never ask for the mileage at renewal, although I tell them.

classiclife
Classic Wise Man
Classic Wise Man
Posts: 1601
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:55 am
Location: Ridgewood - East Sussex
Contact:

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by classiclife »

Thanks for that John.

Without a doubt, there is a significant disparity between various insurance companies and their requirements.

It's probably me, but I would feel a tad uncomfortable about declaring a self assessed valuation at that level without independent input to fall back-on. £30K is a lot of money, but as Chris says - if they agree to that then you have to accept the agreement as it stands.

Certainly an interesting topic, especially when so much is at stake for an individual.

For DLOC members and that is my only steer, making enquires with the club to review their stance on AIV's has to be progressed. If the apparatus was in place before with the club, which it was, there is no reason why it cannot be revisited.

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

Chris_R
Wise Man
Wise Man
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:48 pm
Location: Twickenham

Re: Insurance Valuation

Post by Chris_R »

What is clear here is that nothing is clear. Each one is different. None of these are insurance companies, they are all brokers with a different company behind them providing the insurance. Peter James say that "some policies may be written by Stuart Miller Insurance". RH policies are underwritten by Syndicate 218 at Lloyds. Others use KGM which is a Lloyds company.
Each one will negotiate their own deal with the underwriting company. I use Heritage Insurance, part of Norton Insurance Brokers and can self value up to at least £30,000 with no issue and revised pictures only required biannually. I'm not sure where their limit is before requiring a certified valuation as none of my cars are that valuable. Next time I talk to them I shall ask them.

Post Reply