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2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

tjt77
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2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by tjt77 »

the saga continues.. Ive now discovered that obtaining bearings that are comparable quality to originals is a problem.. seems most suppliers only sell 'tin alloy' or 'bi metal' bearings ..which have a number of issues :- (1) the original Vandervell VP3 bearings , which are 'lead copper' or 'tri metal' construction are good for approx 12,000 psi of pressure ..(2) current 'King' brand tri metal bearings for older engines are good for 10,000psi.(my normal supplier stopped carrying the 'economy' tin alloy versions after numerous complaints of bearing failure) BUT....King ( formerly 'county') which seems to be the primary aftermarket supplier today, dont make them in original specs for the daimler 2 1/2.. only in tin alloy.. typically good for loads of +/- 5,000 psi..( less than 1/2 the durability of original equipment) beyond which they tend to mushroom out and then start to break off the steel backing.. resulting in serious damage .. on top of this Bi metal bearings tend to have a hard surface..which almost always score the crank when they start to fail.. not so the original vandervells..the softer lead alloy facing is gentle on journals.. and will make some warning noise before it gets to the copper backing, enabling replacing the shells before the crank suffers damage..
things started to go downhill the 70s with corporate buy outs.. and 'economy' bearings by 'Glacier' and others became a commonality..
so my question :- does anyone put there have a source for some quality 'tri metal' crankshaft bearings for the 2 1/2 V8 engines ?
Im seeking some in -.010" for con rods.. plus -.010 and -.030" for mains..
I have limited info resources due to location.. am going to try and see what the Aussie company 'ACL' can come up with..
if anyone out there has some old stock originals available in sizes above....PLEASE contact me . thank you.

daimlersteve
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by daimlersteve »

I am doing this exact search as we speak. Numerous emails world wide and awaiting replies. we could share info further down the track.
My application is for double tha org. output so i also would like a set or two of Vandervell bearings.
looking at an MG site on line showed a number of failures using old stock that had started to seperate.
take care, steve

tjt77
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by tjt77 »

Steve, as and when you obtain more info please let me and others on the forum know.. in my current location I do not have access to as much info as is required.. the King bearing catalogue for USA does not have many of the applications they sell elsewhere ( zero for the daimler V8 2 1/2..but they ARE the primary supplier for Uk retailers of classic Jaguar/Daimler parts and do make tin alloy 'bi metal' bearings for the daimler v8s) perhaps ACL in Australia have them listed ?.. Vandervell are back in production now under ownership of Mahle and may be able to help.... my own rebuilds are stalled until I can for the appropriate quality parts required.. there are likely old stocks of bearings still on someones shelf in Uk.. 'Glacier' did make tri metal version of their bearings which are good quality .. they have 'LC' (for lead/copper) marked on both box and bearing shells rather then the normal 'SA'...
If a volume supplier requested that King make them in tri metal..they would do so.. after years of carrying sub standard or 'economy' bearings for the older MG cars, Moss Motors now supply exclusively tri metal,(made by King) due to the well known issues effecting tin alloy bearings in the BMC B series and other long stroke older brit engines when they are used in light competition etc...

tjt77
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by tjt77 »

Just to add... old stock Vandervellls can and do deteriorate depending on time and conditions in storage and how that are packed.. originally they came covered in a preservative film ( equivalent to the US product 'cosmoline') and were wrapped in brown waxy paper packed inside an oblong box.... these tend to hold up well in storage.. later packaging was shrink wrapped to a cardboard backing with little protective film on the actual bearing surface..also in an oblong box.. these tend to deteriorate faster over the years .. the tell tale sign is blackening on the surface, indicating the lead indium outer layer has corrosion damage.. the same issue can be found in older engines that have been unused for a long period with old fluids left in.. which is why its critical to dismantle and inspect an engine that has sat for decades before putting it back into service..
i'd fully expect a daimler 2 1/2 to hold up OK with Bi metal bearings under LIGHT NORMAL use.. but not worth the risk when modified for high power output or if the intent is to use it as one would have 'back in the day'...

daimlersteve
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by daimlersteve »

excellent , good to see another with the same views as myself ( a mutual admiration society for two perhaps ?)
As you've said the kings supplied to the uk are in fact "AM" , the lowest std that king make. The info you have gathered is my experience as well. Awaiting replies from alternative suppliers. A guy here in nz has bored to over 2.8 and used fiat 850 bearings modified to suit the daimler crank. the grind sizes are slightly smaller but the tunnel (o/d) size is the same . However the only King bearing is also "AM," so no point going there unless there are other suppliers for them out there. maybe Mahle have a listing for the Fiat.
steve

tjt77
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by tjt77 »

Steve..Ive had little response from normal established suppliers, but it turns out that 'Vandervell' ( original supplier who are back in business to serve the 'specialist ' market under ownership of Mahle) still have the original drawings for the daimler 2 1/2 on hand.. so they can be made as 'individual sets'... albeit at a price..
did you happen to check with 'ACL' to see what they can come up with ? I'm awaiting a second reply from vandervell to see what can be done.. its likely to take some time, but i will pursue that path and may well end up stocking some popular undersizes if I can come to a suitable agreement... have not yet established pricing or turn around time.. but given the damage that cheapo bearings can and do cause.. this is not an area to 'skimp' of one wants a reliable engine that will hold up.. Im still looking for a source for steel main bearing caps.. most Ive contacted so far dont bother to reply.. seems that damaged and broken intermediate main bearings caps are very common.. there must be quite a bit of flexing on both block and crank. almost every 2 1/2 engine Ive recently taken apart has issues with the centre and intermediate main bearings being worn and crank scored.. 2 engines had 4 broken caps between them..
the fellow who supplied me locally with a front cap, said his crankshaft was in several pieces and cylinder block destroyed.. upon close examination I discovered the centering pins on the cap he supplied are bent..quite a feat! it must take formidable force to bend a stout 3/8 long steel pin that sits tight in the 2 components it is in place to align.. were i to have an unlimited budget I'd re-design the block with wider main bearings and cross bolted steel main bearing caps.... the webs could be narrowed substantially if a better base material were used.. typically manufacturers such as BMC use EN40 grade steel in their high performance versions of std engines..(MGA twin cam, the Mk2 950cc sprite and 1 st series 1275 A series come to mind) I believe the daimler crank is equiv to EN 19 steel .....That and replacing those stupid motorcycle style cam followers which are another source of premature wear ,with a roller type or simply normal of set flat faced round followers that can spin as in normal automotive engines to mitigate wear.. the Turner V8 is, as with most of his designs.. elegant and practical as regards simplicity to keep to a tight budget.. but the shortcomings make for chronic lack of durability in the longterm..

daimlersteve
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by daimlersteve »

My ponderings , re cam followers/ roller /flat.
Yes a roller follower would be an advantage -- totally different cam profile is possible then, much more area under the cam graph line. Expensive and would the valve train hold up to the higher spring loads possible with the full use of a r/cam aggressive profile?
Flat followers -- To get the followers to turn the cam is usually offset from the centre line of the follower ,that combined with the angle ground on the cam produces the spin. The oil pump gear tends to create a problem there as it is set by the drive shaft to the oil pump. Alternatively ,the Valley cover could be machined to provide the necc. offset. and rebushed (saloon type)
Yes,i've also called Mahle/Vandervell re bearings. reply from two seperate sources within the company was - no stock and expensive to do custom run.
King supply is as you say. ally only.
ACL dont have a stock listing . Called the NZ agent yesterday and certainly not on their on-line catalog.
I have a couple of leads but they would require modifying other bearings , same size but wider and that still doesnt cover the 38 mm long rear main, though a mix (in desperation) could be used and with steel main caps would sort the other bearings on the bottom end. By cutting down other bearings the #2 and #3 could be made wider as the std. set uses the centre width for all three places.
I've spent many hrs researching the supply situation of copper/lead shells and this is the best i can do at this point.

steve

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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by daimlersteve »

Oops, typo there, --- bearings 2 and 4 could be made wider.
I would say that Russ would have covered this but Denis Stewart ( at times on here) has the file to machine a four bolt main centre cap if anyone would like to contact him. His 2.8 ltr. has this design fitted.
Bearings, --- I am at the blind end of the tunnel ,so to speak. After much research i can only come up with a bearing for the mains that requires reducing in length , these would replace all but the rear main but have the same main journal dia. as the org. main .(definite lack of options here as the crank would ideally be ground one size for all journals.) Similarly for the b/ends ,but here we have the beneifit of increasing the tunnel size if necessary as there is no complication of the rear main machining.) required to reduce length and also to cut and drill oil for feed groove. Will probably be ACL but if unavailable as plain ( undrilled) will go with the King copper/lead version.( I should know tomorrow)
I'm always happy to be improved on but i will be taking this route in the next week or so should no other option surface.
cheers to all , Steve. Now back to my venison.

daimlersteve
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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by daimlersteve »

Having just said all that i have made aware of yet another avenue of enquiry. we live in hope but don't get too excited just yet.
steve

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Re: 2 1/2 crankshaft bearings..

Post by daimlersteve »

Nope, another false lead.
XRN Engineering in the UK were said to supply a new range of copper/lead King bearings for british classics.
Unfortunatley this is not the case. just heard back from them. Only AM type available for this application.
So , i'm onto the altered versions.
I did have the thought that the couple of Race cars in the US must have found something good, but of course when you're getting a custom conrod made you can put any size into it within reason.
regards steve

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