If you would like to join the DLOC, please visit the Club's website https://www.dloc.org.uk/
Please don't post someone's email address. Some people don't want to risk it being harvested by spambots and GDPR regulations discourage it.
Always look at "ACTIVE TOPICS" which gives all posts in date & time order if you can't find a post or "Your Posts", as topics are sometimes moved.
Reg. nrs. Please add reg. nr. when posting a photo or anything about a car as this will help searches. Don't add punctuation next to nr. as this negates search.

Head Gaskets killer !!

Culbu
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:21 pm
Location: Deauville, FRANCE

Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Culbu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:52 pm

Hello every body,

Currently into my workshop, there is a lovely 1961 SP250 (VIN #100844).

This car was supposed to have been recently totally rebuilt in England, "bolts and nuts" as you say.

Once arrived in France and 200 miles after this restoration, the 2 head gaskets were dead : cooling liquid and engine oil leaks, mainly flywheel side.

So I replaced them. In the same time of course, the 2 cylinder heads were tested and "levelled". Then the car gone...

But 200 miles later, same problem !! cooling liquid and engine oil leaks, between the cylinder heads and the block, mainly flywheel side !!

The cylinder heads have been tested a second time, still okay. Same thing for the inlet manifold, it's okay.

May the flywheel side cylinders could be insufficiently cooled ? The temperature gauge always displays a correct temperature but it proves nothing. In the next few days, I intend to remove the sump and check up the cooling system into the block...

All your advices are welcome guys. I absolutely have to fix this problem. I accept to fail one time, but not two !!

Julian

Big Col
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:45 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Big Col » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:34 pm

First check is to take out the block drain plugs. If the water does not drain freely then suspect trouble. You may have to give the drain holes a poke to begin but then coolant should flow freely.
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

Big Col
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:45 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Big Col » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:35 pm

Secondly check the block for flatness with a straight edge and feller gauges.
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

Big Col
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:45 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Big Col » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:42 pm

Thirdly while the heads are off, make up a long drill bit and poke it down the coolant holes at the front of the block and determine how far down it goes. Then twist it manually and see if there is any crud at the bottom, sand or rust etc. Then repeat the process at the rear of the block and see is the drill bit goes into the same depth. Twist it again to see if crud is present.
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

Big Col
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:45 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Big Col » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:50 pm

Fourthly check how much material has already been skimmed from the heads. The maximum is said to be 1mm (40thou). I seem to remember that a quick visual check is tha is the water pump flanges have been cut into while skimming then it may be too much. I also seem to remember that the nominal head thickness is 3 inches but I may be wrong. If more than 1mm has been removed then you will require spacer gaskets to make up to size.
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

tjt77
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:01 pm

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by tjt77 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:24 am

Advice posted above all good ...could be several factors and possibly 'combined' issues.. some possible issues :- warped head face ( checked and corrected .. ) blocked passages in heads due to welding.. blocked or partially blocked cooling passage in cylinder block due to crud build up . :-have you had the heads checked for cracks ?(often invisible..machine shops have facilities to check) since heads are now known to be flat.. check the block face for flatness/ any undulations.. remove coolant drain plugs (5/16 socket) and see if coolant flows out.. if not try and get a drill bit in there and see if you can get the crud out.. have the heads been welded up in the coolant galleries ? if so carefully inspect them for blockages around the welds ( Ive had this issue occur more than once.. its quite common for welds to close up or restrict the passages and be missed by the machinist..they may look perfect from the face..you need to look deep within those passages to make sure they are open to coolant flow.) check thickness of heads to make sure they have not been skimmed beyond tolerance. (3" deep I believe when new) . are you using head bolts or the original stud/nut combination ? if using bolts :- check they are going full distance into the block..always wise to run a thread chaser into the block on ALL head stud holes..make sure threads are clean and bolts/studs will screw fully in without resistance/tight spots.. if using bolts, make sure the washers are correct way up ( inner chamfer up) and that they spin without resistance under the bolt head.(correct as required with countersink bit and fine file to remove high spots below bolt head) With bolts, is there anything to cause tight spots/resistance? its impossible to gain correct torque settings if so.. also.the 'composite' had gaskets that were produced to compensate for over skimming are more tolerant of light warping in block or head face.. oil feed pipe to rockers can also be cause of oil leaks.. so inspect this carefully.. a chocked radiator will also cause the engine to get hot.. if it gets too hot, it can and will warp the heads.. always look to 'cause and effect'.. do you have records of past problems and work done to resolve them to investigate ? a full engine rebuild, should include chemical cleaning/hot tanking the cylinder block to remove all internal corrosion, checking all mating surface for flatness and correcting as required.. check records to see if this was done..

Culbu
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:21 pm
Location: Deauville, FRANCE

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Culbu » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm

Good afternoon,

Thank you Tjt 77 and Big Col for your replies.

I followed the first advice and took out the 2 block drain plugs. And although I gave the drain holes a poke, the coolant never flew by one of the two holes.

The coolant seems to reach the middle of the block but doesn't go further. Moreover, the two central core plugs present some coolant leak marks.

According to my machinist, the 2 cylinder heads are used. Their thickness could be insufficient. They have already been welded in the past...

Anyway, I made my report to the owner of the car and I would prefer an engine exchange, considering the fact that his engine could be too used to be correctly overhauled. Is a should exchange possible ? Then who should I contact ?

If it's not possible, who is in England the best person to realise a very professional complete restoration of this engine ? I'm feeling not qualified enough to do this job...

Kind regards,

Julian

To Tjt 77 : original studs and nuts / No history about the car and the "bolts and nuts" engine restoration.

User avatar
Vortex O'Plinth
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:15 pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Vortex O'Plinth » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:53 pm

Culbu wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:16 pm

.....Anyway, I made my report to the owner of the car and I would prefer an engine exchange, considering the fact that his engine could be too used to be correctly overhauled. Is a should exchange possible ? Then who should I contact ?

If it's not possible, who is in England the best person to realise a very professional complete restoration of this engine ? I'm feeling not qualified enough to do this job...
One person you should contact Julian, is Russ Carpenter. Russ's knowledge of the Daimler V8 engine is encyclopaedic and he's probably rebuilt more of these engines than anyone else alive.
Nick

"Open the pod bay door Hal".

Chris_R
Posts: 430
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:48 pm
Location: Twickenham

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Chris_R » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:26 am

An important point to make here, in your first post you say that "This car was supposed to have been recently totally rebuilt in England, "bolts and nuts" as you say."
A "nut and bolt" rebuild or restoration is usually understood to mean that all work in the entire car has been done to the very highest standard and that everything has either been cleaned or replaced and the entire car is as good as new with no exception and that will include everything about the engine.
I do not know if your customer had the work done or if your customer bought the car from a dealer. Yet within a very short time it has failed. If your customer bought the car from a dealer there could be a case here to claim from the seller. UK law requires that any car sold should be of "satisfactory quality", "as described" and "fit for purpose" at the time of sale. From what you have said it seems the work on the engine is far below the standard that we would understand from the description "nut and bolt" restoration and the car is not "fit for purpose".

Big Col
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:45 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Head Gaskets killer !!

Post by Big Col » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:04 pm

I don’t want this topic to get hijacked and go off thread but, Your right Chris. It a crying shame that the Classic Car scene, even now in this day and age, get shit on ocassionally by what can only be classified as horse traders.
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

Post Reply