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V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

classiclife
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V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by classiclife »

Hello,

I know this topic has been touched upon before in parts, having used the search facility to glean some knowledge, but thought I'd pitch the following situation to generate some advice and previous experiences.

My car has the Ultra Sparks Classic Range copper HT leads encased within 7mm silicone - which is the generic set-up from this company and all the leads have acorn fittings due to the copper core element. I must add that the spark plug lead set is a perfect fit and operational system.

Here comes the situation .................... !!

I have just purchased 4x LED indicator bulbs along with an LED flasher unit from Classic Car LED's which is Duncan Rickards company and an excellent one at that.

You probably know where this is going, already !!

On fitting the LED bulbs and flasher unit - the set-up worked perfectly with the IGNITION ON ONLY.
However, this was not the case with the ENGINE RUNNING whereby the flasher unit incurred significant Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) which prevented it from being able to operate the 4x LED indicators.
With the engine switched off and the ignition on only, the system reverted to working properly as before.

Cars that use acorn fittings, have to (as far as I am aware) use copper core HT leads with a silicone outer casing, often 7mm as mentioned above. The issue here is that copper core leads by their very nature are not suppressed - which is why you will experience radio crackle and LED indicator failure.

I do not think it is possible to obtain an inline suppressor to fit the King Lead (coil to dizzy) if copper core is being used. If that is the case - please say if that is incorrect - the suppression must come from another source.

As such and here is my question: can suppression be achieved by replacing all standard 8x spark plugs with a set of 8x that each have an inbuilt resistor; for example BPR6ES instead of BP6ES - the latter being the non-resistor type ??

I will be grateful if anyone has been down a similar route and has experience of such, with or without a successful outcome.

Can I just add, that this is not about who prefers what spark plug make & type, but purely if the resistor plug(s) can achieve the required suppression as outlined above.

Thank you in advance.

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

Vortex O'Plinth
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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by Vortex O'Plinth »

I swapped the BP6ES for BPR6ES plugs in my SP and it stopped interference playing merry hell with our TV picture (TV in the house, not the car). They certainly suppress interference but whether they would be effective against your problem I'm not sure.
Nick

"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".

classiclife
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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by classiclife »

Thanks Nick,

That's a useful start.

On a side issue, I have electronic ignition on the car and copper core HT leads - my understanding is that EI and copper leads are not compatible and yet the car seems to function fine.

Confusing to say the least !!

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by Ursa major »

Richard,

I have exactly the same problem with my SP, with LEDs and flasher unit from Classic Car Leds. On Duncan's advice I fitted an in-line suppressor, (supplied by Auto Electrical Supplies Ltd., part number 060603), in the lead from the coil to the distributor. It cured the problem at idle and has improved it at speed but interference still affects the flasher unit to a completely unacceptable degree.

I have tried a form of choke in the supply line, a capacitor shunting across the unit to no avail and am about to revert to the old unit with a 3.3 ohm 100W resistor to provide a load for it. Hoever, I have not tried Nick's solution; Duncan's last suggestion was to put the flasher unit in a Faraday cage...

I also echo your plea; if anyone has successfully cured this, please post!

With best wishes,

Simon

classiclife
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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by classiclife »

Hello Simon,

Over the weekend I have gleaned some useful information which has taken this issue in another direction as well - never straight forward !!

As mentioned, I have electronic ignition (EI) fitted to the car and also copper core HT leads which the PO installed - there is no doubt that these 2x combinations are certainly not ideal and may lead to running issues further down the line. The lack of or should I say zero suppression benefit from copper core leads affects the integrity of the EI over a period of time - how long that takes, I have no idea. In addition it completely neutralises the operational status of the LED indicator set-up.

This situation has also been confirmed by Anthony, he is the chap who owns the Mr Retro Leads and is very knowledgeable on this subject.
https://mrretroleads.co.uk/

The answer appears to be, change the entire copper core HT lead set for silicone items; this will prevent EI damage and also allow the LED indicators & LED flasher unit to work correctly. Speaking with Simon who owns Powerspark, the following looks to be the answer:
https://simonbbc.com/daimler-extended-l ... leads-7mm/

It's not a cheap option but if it solves the issue then it is money well spent. I am not a big fan of adding bits and pieces on to a system, but rather keeping it as simple as possible and this does appear to be a possibility.

The only downside I can see at the moment, is that my car has the proper rubber diaphragms which fit over the spark plug tube and I am not sure how this can be addressed - but I am looking in to it and will report back accordingly !!

Hope that assists ??

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

classiclife
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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by classiclife »

Further to my last, this company may hold the key to all my questions, with their HT leads.

They originally did the copper core system, but have stopped doing so and now produce silicone leads with the correct spark plug tube fitted covers.

Ironically and to take it in a full circle, they are the company that manufactures Ultra Sparks HT leads. The PO, of my car, appears to have fitted copper leads before the company changed over to silicone.

I need to confirm this, but it is certainly looking that way at the moment.

https://www.ignitioncarparts.co.uk/Part ... 009&s_vid=

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by Ursa major »

Hi Richard.

Very interesting. I looked at silicon leads but didn’t go that route initially (a) because of the cost and (b) because I didn’t know if it would work. I look forward to hearing of your success... If they do work, it will be money well spent.

With best wishes,

Simon

classiclife
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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by classiclife »

Thanks Simon,

Hopefully I will know more beginning of next week - I may also go the resistor spark plug route as for a "belt & braces" set-up.

Will keep you posted.

Regards.

Richard.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

Ursa major
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:21 pm
Location: Eindhoven

Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by Ursa major »

Hi, Richard.

Lovely day here, sunny, dry and with nobody on the road, and I managed to get out in the car for the first time in a month. I can confirm that 3.3ohm resistive loads in parallel with the rear indicators and a traditional thermal flasher unit do work. No reason, of course, that they shouldn't but gratifying to have done it. They really ought to have heatsinks attached to them, given that the Dart is fibreglass and so the bodywork doesn't help, but they don't seem to get hot under normal usage. I have fitted a buzzer as well to tell me that they are on, just in case.

I look forward to news on the resistive leads etc.

With best wishes,

Simon

classiclife
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Re: V8-250 Saloon: LED's & HT Leads

Post by classiclife »

Hello Simon,

Pleased to hear you have found a cure and that the system is working properly.

I replaced the copper core HT leads with a silicone set from Ignition Car Parts, the company I mentioned.

On a side note, I swapped the coil from a standard unit to a Lucas Sports (DLB105) due to having electronic ignition. As far as the EI is concerned I am happy knowing that I have the correct leads fitted and that a more powerful coil is in situ. The King Lead is acorn at the dizzy and push fit to the coil. The plugs have been gapped larger at .028" to accommodate the bigger spark generated by the EI.

Meanwhile !!! With the new HT leads in situ and engine running there was a slight improvement with the indicators but not nowhere near enough to be acceptable. The leads are obviously suppressed but not sufficiently.

Next stage, I replaced all the NGK BP6ES plugs with BPR6ES plugs - thanks Nick. With the engine running, the combination of the silicone leads and the R plugs has 95% sorted the issue. However, you do on occasions get a sudden surge of erratic flashing and then it corrects itself; some could live with that but not me. In addition it may be flagged as an issue when being MOT'd.

I have now ordered the inline suppressor from Classic Car LED's and I am certain that will nail it, later this week.

It has been a puzzler and I also wonder if the close proximity of the coil and LED flasher unit (almost back-to-back) on the V8 saloon bulkhead has added to the problem.

Looking at this pragmatically I certainly needed to replace the HT leads (copper to silicone) due to the EI incompatibility; regardless of the flasher indicator issue. The R plugs were picked up cheaply enough and they were also worth trying - they have certainly improved the situation immensely and as such they must be doing something beneficial - looking good for when the radio is fitted !! The inline suppressor, as mentioned, should finish the job - I will update the thread once fitted.

I will at some stage and report back accordingly, swap the plugs from R back to standard BP6ES to ascertain if the inline suppressor is sufficient on its own to resolve the problem. The safety benefit of LED lights speaks for itself, but there has to be a seamless switchover to make the conversion viable and hassle free.

Needless to say, the other LED bulbs on the car which is all, excluding the headlights, work perfectly.

Hope the above is of assistance and interest ??

Regards.

Richard.
Last edited by classiclife on Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1968 Daimler V8-250 Saloon
DLOC East Sussex Branch Secretary
DLOC 2.5L V8 & V8-250 Registrar - https://www.dloc.org.uk/v8-250
DLOC 2024 International Rally - https://www.dloc.org.uk/rally-2024

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