I have access to a 4.5 liter Daimler engine. I would like to start a chain of information regarding what it takes to put a 4.5 liter into a SP250 Dart. I am not looking for a philosophical discussion regarding the merits of the swap but rather, what it takes to put a 4.5 liter into the dart.
First I know the oil pan won't work but what else should I be thinking of?
Thank you.
I welcome all info regarding this project plus I am sure a few philosophical points.
Thank you.
Patrick
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Please don't post someone's email address to avoid it being harvested by spambots and it's against GDPR regulations.
Always look at "ACTIVE TOPICS" to see all posts in date & time order as they are sometimes moved; or look at "Your Posts".
Please add Reg. nrs. when posting a photo or anything about a car as this will help searches. Don't add punctuation next to nr. as this negates search.
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SP450
Re: SP450
I suggest you contact Laurence Jones via the SP250 website http://www.daimlersp250dartownersclub.com/forum/ as he knows who owns 4.5 litre cars and has a good knowledge of the process.
Re: SP450
There are about 6 cars that all have been converted over the years and no two are the same with different gearboxes, axles, steering etc.
A few with converted cars post on here.
A job not for the feint hearted I think!
Few if any SP450s will be worth as much as a good SP 250 - just saying!
SimonP
A few with converted cars post on here.
A job not for the feint hearted I think!
Few if any SP450s will be worth as much as a good SP 250 - just saying!
SimonP
Daimler SP 250 - "To feel its eager response as you open up is to know a new motoring adventure"(Sales brochure) The adventure continues!
Re: SP450
Patrick
I have one but I didn't create it, I bought it a number of years ago having decided that if one came along I'd be interested. I then started to refurbish it because it had been neglected by the vendor; this is still not finished due to a long list of interruptions. I hope that it will be completed and back on the road by 2020, which will be 20 years from the time I bought it - a ridiculous length of time. Simple refurb has required much more work than I anticipated due to the state of the machine and additional modifications that I thought worthwhile. But this is not what you want to hear!
Other that this one there are only another two in the UK at the moment, one created in the 70s and I think still on the road in the Midlands, with another only recently finished and just back on the road by someone with major car restoration capabilities in the south. I think another is still being created in Australia, and there is one in New Zealand not on the road, and another two that may still exist elsewhere in the world. unfortunately none of the other current owners are active on this forum, although one did occasionally post on the old DL centre forum.
In other words they are few and far between and not easy to convert "properly" without substantial knowledge and modification capabilities, such as substantial reconstruction of the chassis, on the part of the creator. Some have tried and given up because of the difficulties. And each example is quite different according to the creators' choices concerning the positioning of the engine, modifications of the body if any, and what changes to the chassis, suspension and transmission are needed to cope with the additional power.
What seems clear is that the conversion is not done with any regard to the ultimate value of the car because it is unclear to what extent such major changes affect value. It is done because the 4.5 litre engine is there and the factory never did it, and despite the fact that the 2.5 engine can be modified to produce much more power if that is the intention.
I'll leave it at that for the moment and try to add a couple of photos
the 450 is the one behind when first acquired.
Spot the difference, the engine bay when first acquired.
Regards
Geoff
I have one but I didn't create it, I bought it a number of years ago having decided that if one came along I'd be interested. I then started to refurbish it because it had been neglected by the vendor; this is still not finished due to a long list of interruptions. I hope that it will be completed and back on the road by 2020, which will be 20 years from the time I bought it - a ridiculous length of time. Simple refurb has required much more work than I anticipated due to the state of the machine and additional modifications that I thought worthwhile. But this is not what you want to hear!
Other that this one there are only another two in the UK at the moment, one created in the 70s and I think still on the road in the Midlands, with another only recently finished and just back on the road by someone with major car restoration capabilities in the south. I think another is still being created in Australia, and there is one in New Zealand not on the road, and another two that may still exist elsewhere in the world. unfortunately none of the other current owners are active on this forum, although one did occasionally post on the old DL centre forum.
In other words they are few and far between and not easy to convert "properly" without substantial knowledge and modification capabilities, such as substantial reconstruction of the chassis, on the part of the creator. Some have tried and given up because of the difficulties. And each example is quite different according to the creators' choices concerning the positioning of the engine, modifications of the body if any, and what changes to the chassis, suspension and transmission are needed to cope with the additional power.
What seems clear is that the conversion is not done with any regard to the ultimate value of the car because it is unclear to what extent such major changes affect value. It is done because the 4.5 litre engine is there and the factory never did it, and despite the fact that the 2.5 engine can be modified to produce much more power if that is the intention.
I'll leave it at that for the moment and try to add a couple of photos
Regards
Geoff
Re: SP450
There was one in Scotland and appeared at the Scottish Daimler meet at Doune in the mid 70's It used a Jag Mk1 rear axle ( the one the Escort guys rallied with) more or less standard chassis but the engine was pushed back to clear the front suspension pillars,( and help the balance). Jaguar overdrive manual box and I believe a new engine back plate to bolt on the gearbox and starter, I also believe that the chassis was modified to take the gearbox and overdrive as well as modifying the bulkhead.
I have seen Geoff's car and it is my belief that it was built from a write off due to heavy frontal crash, whether it was officially written of is not known, the regulations for notifying were a touch vague in those days.
I have seen Geoff's car and it is my belief that it was built from a write off due to heavy frontal crash, whether it was officially written of is not known, the regulations for notifying were a touch vague in those days.
Owner since the 70's, Genghis is slightly to my left.
Re: SP450
Thank you guys. I appreciate all your input. However, I will still fantasize the notion of a 4.5 liter in an SP250. After all didn't Carrol Shelby do the same thing to an AC Bristol and a Sunbeam Alpine. However it's unlikely I will go through the process any time soon.
Patrick
Patrick
Re: SP450
Patrick
I had intended to add some further information about the details of the conversion now in my charge, largely as the 'heavy' end of the mod spectrum. It is quite fascinating but also mysterious because there is little history available and no one remembers it. Ref Ian's comment that it may have been damaged, this arises from both the modifications to the chassis and also the history of the car and the owner most likely to have had the time to do the work. The first owner was from 64 to 84, thereafter there were several owners until the 1990s, so it is most likely that the first owner was the genius concerned, and perhaps he was so attached to the car that he was undeterred by a frontal collision and that is what set him on the path. Much of what follows has already been published in the DM. I'll start with the chassis:
This was completely reworked, heavily strengthened and stiffened, with the cruciform moved back to allow the engine to be moved by several inches to the rear. The front was amputated just behind the spring turrets and a Jaguar MkII front subframe welded on with its front suspension, but it was turned about so that the steering arms pointed forwards instead of rearwards and a triumph rack was substituted for the usual box and st linkage. The MkII front anti-roll bar was retained. Further to the rear a J 3.8 MkII lsd rear axle was fitted, complete with Panhard rod, radius arms and telescopic shox, using the original leaf springs.
At the front behind the suspension subframe and at the rear adjacent to the rear axle additional transverse bracing of the chassis was created using steel tubing, to support the front suspension and rear axle attachments. The entire bulkhead was heavily reworked to aid rearward shift of engine; heater plenum box front wall removed and scuttle air intake retained as engine bay air exit.
Transmission: a J 3.8 MkII all synchromesh OD box with a J diaphragm clutch, possibly on an SP flywheel, with a suitable backplate made.
Brakes: J MkII plus servo fitted in battery place, battery moved to boot. J MkII master cylinders fitted above driver's footwell. Standard J MkII front and rear brake discs and calipers were fitted, plus J E type flat hub wire wheels.
The bodywork was suitably modified by widening the wheelarches to enclose the wheels, and widening the transmission tunnel inside.
The engine itself appears to be largely standard, with twin SU HD8 carbs, although the water inlet and outlet pipes at the front were replaced with SP250 items, each widened by about 3 cm to facilitate their use on the larger engine, Therefore it looks more like a standard SP engine except that the header tank is not used, instead a larger conventional radiator (source vehicle unknown) with top tank and radiator cap is fitted. Jaguar E Type twin radiator fans were fitted.
The quality of the work is in most areas fairly high, although there were some curiously poor or perhaps unfinished areas and omissions. The oil feed pipe to the rocker shafts had not been used; instead a rubber pipe led around the engine bay to brass tubular oil feed pipes on the front of each cylinder head, and these were dripping oil on to the exhausts below. A strangely amateur feature compared to all the other work, given that it has not been really difficult to fit the standard rocker shaft rear oil feed pipe to the engine. The exhaust arrangement involved turning the standard exhaust manifolds around to point forward, with downpipes fabricated to curve sharply downward alongside the sump and to the rear via standard size SP silencers with larger pipework. These are inadequate for the job they have to do. Talking of the sump, it is a rectangular steel fabrication, beautifully made in the shape of the standard SP alloy sump but not finned of course, with a base plate that slopes fore to aft and to the near side where the drain plug is sited. But oddly, no oil temperature gauge and also no roll over bar.
Altogether it has the feeling of a lot of good ideas, the intention to create the ultimate SP450 with every issue of big power dealt with, including the suspension and brakes which few others do, but there is also a niggling feeling of unfinished glory. Perhaps it just didn't work out as hoped, and why was it never used as apparently intended, in competition?
Meanwhile I'm plodding my way through it, restoring, rebuilding and adding things wherever I feel they are necessary. It will never again be a "proper" SP, but it deserves to be put back on the road in tribute to whomsoever tried to create something special, and also with regard to the chap who rebuilt the engine in 1996 and started on the road of sorting it out properly, none other than Duncan Pettigrew.
I'll go no further because this simple description is already too long. Any questions, please ask. A couple more old photos perhaps - it mostly looks better now!
The offside front hub, also showing the MkII subframe & suspension and its attachment to the chassis side rail.
View of drivers seat with poorly finished dash requiring complete rebuild. J E type bucket seats.
Front of engine and MkIi subframe behind radiator, with widened water inlet pipe and exhaust downpipes.
View of front of subframe below radiator grille, with steering rack and antiroll bar
I had intended to add some further information about the details of the conversion now in my charge, largely as the 'heavy' end of the mod spectrum. It is quite fascinating but also mysterious because there is little history available and no one remembers it. Ref Ian's comment that it may have been damaged, this arises from both the modifications to the chassis and also the history of the car and the owner most likely to have had the time to do the work. The first owner was from 64 to 84, thereafter there were several owners until the 1990s, so it is most likely that the first owner was the genius concerned, and perhaps he was so attached to the car that he was undeterred by a frontal collision and that is what set him on the path. Much of what follows has already been published in the DM. I'll start with the chassis:
This was completely reworked, heavily strengthened and stiffened, with the cruciform moved back to allow the engine to be moved by several inches to the rear. The front was amputated just behind the spring turrets and a Jaguar MkII front subframe welded on with its front suspension, but it was turned about so that the steering arms pointed forwards instead of rearwards and a triumph rack was substituted for the usual box and st linkage. The MkII front anti-roll bar was retained. Further to the rear a J 3.8 MkII lsd rear axle was fitted, complete with Panhard rod, radius arms and telescopic shox, using the original leaf springs.
At the front behind the suspension subframe and at the rear adjacent to the rear axle additional transverse bracing of the chassis was created using steel tubing, to support the front suspension and rear axle attachments. The entire bulkhead was heavily reworked to aid rearward shift of engine; heater plenum box front wall removed and scuttle air intake retained as engine bay air exit.
Transmission: a J 3.8 MkII all synchromesh OD box with a J diaphragm clutch, possibly on an SP flywheel, with a suitable backplate made.
Brakes: J MkII plus servo fitted in battery place, battery moved to boot. J MkII master cylinders fitted above driver's footwell. Standard J MkII front and rear brake discs and calipers were fitted, plus J E type flat hub wire wheels.
The bodywork was suitably modified by widening the wheelarches to enclose the wheels, and widening the transmission tunnel inside.
The engine itself appears to be largely standard, with twin SU HD8 carbs, although the water inlet and outlet pipes at the front were replaced with SP250 items, each widened by about 3 cm to facilitate their use on the larger engine, Therefore it looks more like a standard SP engine except that the header tank is not used, instead a larger conventional radiator (source vehicle unknown) with top tank and radiator cap is fitted. Jaguar E Type twin radiator fans were fitted.
The quality of the work is in most areas fairly high, although there were some curiously poor or perhaps unfinished areas and omissions. The oil feed pipe to the rocker shafts had not been used; instead a rubber pipe led around the engine bay to brass tubular oil feed pipes on the front of each cylinder head, and these were dripping oil on to the exhausts below. A strangely amateur feature compared to all the other work, given that it has not been really difficult to fit the standard rocker shaft rear oil feed pipe to the engine. The exhaust arrangement involved turning the standard exhaust manifolds around to point forward, with downpipes fabricated to curve sharply downward alongside the sump and to the rear via standard size SP silencers with larger pipework. These are inadequate for the job they have to do. Talking of the sump, it is a rectangular steel fabrication, beautifully made in the shape of the standard SP alloy sump but not finned of course, with a base plate that slopes fore to aft and to the near side where the drain plug is sited. But oddly, no oil temperature gauge and also no roll over bar.
Altogether it has the feeling of a lot of good ideas, the intention to create the ultimate SP450 with every issue of big power dealt with, including the suspension and brakes which few others do, but there is also a niggling feeling of unfinished glory. Perhaps it just didn't work out as hoped, and why was it never used as apparently intended, in competition?
Meanwhile I'm plodding my way through it, restoring, rebuilding and adding things wherever I feel they are necessary. It will never again be a "proper" SP, but it deserves to be put back on the road in tribute to whomsoever tried to create something special, and also with regard to the chap who rebuilt the engine in 1996 and started on the road of sorting it out properly, none other than Duncan Pettigrew.
I'll go no further because this simple description is already too long. Any questions, please ask. A couple more old photos perhaps - it mostly looks better now!
The offside front hub, also showing the MkII subframe & suspension and its attachment to the chassis side rail.
-
Vortex O'Plinth
- Extra-Wise Man
- Posts: 1065
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:15 pm
- Location: Gloucestershire
Re: SP450
As an aside, the Wikipedia entry on the Daimler V8 Engines contains the following...
"The two sizes of the Daimler derivative engines share similar external dimensions and design, including bore spacings, and one can be bolted in place of the other. "
Not too surprisingly this statement has been tagged as 'citation needed'. Given the info in the preceding posts in this thread, such supporting evidence seems unlikely to emerge.... (although to be fair, the quote didn't include the words 'without modification')
"The two sizes of the Daimler derivative engines share similar external dimensions and design, including bore spacings, and one can be bolted in place of the other. "
Not too surprisingly this statement has been tagged as 'citation needed'. Given the info in the preceding posts in this thread, such supporting evidence seems unlikely to emerge.... (although to be fair, the quote didn't include the words 'without modification')
Nick
"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".
"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".
Re: SP450
Nick
It's some time since I visited the Wiki DV8 page. I believe that several attempts have been made to fit the larger engine where the smaller one goes, mostly without success. I think that the New Zealand car took that direction, but I don't know what problems had to be resolved to do it. The most recent person to have done it is Bill Goodall, who posted some thoughts and photos of the outcome. It is now on the road successfully I think, having had a MM rear axle modified to fit after the original failed to cope with the power. His main problem with siting the engine in place of the original was the banana between the spring turrets I believe. In the end he put a straight strut between them which left room for the water pump and front inlet pipe underneath but no room for the outlet pipe/thermostat. This was re-positioned at the rear of the engine, and connected to the radiator via pipes and hoses routed around the engine bay, an ingenious solution!
There are many other issues to deal with as the creator of the one in my possession clearly knew or found and dealt with. It is not just a matter of how to put the engine in with as few simple mods as possible. It is a matter of engineering a vehicle able to cope safely with the power available and the overall additional weight of all the upgrades required to do that. The simplest recourse in the 1970s and 80s was to use Jaguar components. An alternative way to do it was suggested by the late Alan Clark MP some years ago - put the 4.5 V8 into an E type. But who would devalue an E type substantially by doing that now just to prove his point?
Unfortunately I don't know how to modify or even create a Wiki entry. Perhaps someone should challenge the assertion that the two engines are interchangeable?
More photos showing general layout; alloy components painted with suitable primer
Regards
Geoff
It's some time since I visited the Wiki DV8 page. I believe that several attempts have been made to fit the larger engine where the smaller one goes, mostly without success. I think that the New Zealand car took that direction, but I don't know what problems had to be resolved to do it. The most recent person to have done it is Bill Goodall, who posted some thoughts and photos of the outcome. It is now on the road successfully I think, having had a MM rear axle modified to fit after the original failed to cope with the power. His main problem with siting the engine in place of the original was the banana between the spring turrets I believe. In the end he put a straight strut between them which left room for the water pump and front inlet pipe underneath but no room for the outlet pipe/thermostat. This was re-positioned at the rear of the engine, and connected to the radiator via pipes and hoses routed around the engine bay, an ingenious solution!
There are many other issues to deal with as the creator of the one in my possession clearly knew or found and dealt with. It is not just a matter of how to put the engine in with as few simple mods as possible. It is a matter of engineering a vehicle able to cope safely with the power available and the overall additional weight of all the upgrades required to do that. The simplest recourse in the 1970s and 80s was to use Jaguar components. An alternative way to do it was suggested by the late Alan Clark MP some years ago - put the 4.5 V8 into an E type. But who would devalue an E type substantially by doing that now just to prove his point?
Unfortunately I don't know how to modify or even create a Wiki entry. Perhaps someone should challenge the assertion that the two engines are interchangeable?
More photos showing general layout; alloy components painted with suitable primer
Geoff
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Vortex O'Plinth
- Extra-Wise Man
- Posts: 1065
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:15 pm
- Location: Gloucestershire
Re: SP450
A very good point Geoff. 'Finding a home' for the 4.5 litre engine in an SP is one of the minor problems compared with the additional work needed to produce a car that handles well and can safely exploit the additional power. The Triumph chassis - of which the SP's is virtually a straight copy - was originally designed for an engine producing around 90 bhp; dropping in another 130 bhp, and considerably more weight is going to be noticeable! Even with the 140 bhp of the 2.5 litre engine the original SP handled in a very vintage manner - once set up for a corner it was very inadvisable to change your mind half way round! The description of the mods to your car show that the builder put significant effort into upgrading the chassis and transmission.Geoff Douglas wrote:
.... It is not just a matter of how to put the engine in with as few simple mods as possible. It is a matter of engineering a vehicle able to cope safely with the power available and the overall additional weight of all the upgrades required to do that. The simplest recourse in the 1970s and 80s was to use Jaguar components....
....Unfortunately I don't know how to modify or even create a Wiki entry. Perhaps someone should challenge the assertion that the two engines are interchangeable?
Geoff
The fact that the Wiki entry already carries a 'citation needed' tag (which anyone can apply) indicates that at least one reader finds the assertion that the two engines are 'interchangeable' questionable. Certainly the basic dimensions of the larger engine are not hugely greater - it's 4" taller and 1.5" wider, but the engine ancillaries and the larger transmission needed will pose a few clearance problems.
Do I presume you've never actually driven your car? It would be very interesting to hear how the drive compares with the original.
Last edited by Vortex O'Plinth on Tue May 24, 2016 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nick
"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".
"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".