EL24 cylinderhead

Big Col
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Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by Big Col » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:08 pm

Very commendable Marcel, the enthusiasm you have shown to go ahead with your efforts is on a par with other members without concern for personal praise or gain.
It can be said that most people join car clubs for help and information. It is good that a fair proportion of them are just as willing to give as receive.
Most join due to an interest in a model rather than fancy show stands, glossy mags and posh web sites and it is the warmth of the membership that generally earns loyalty not trying to win prizes for best stand in show.

Sorry if the following is common knowledge but if it is then I am guilty of not paying attention.

What percentage of the spares loan fund is used year on year ? If the fund has been clubbed together with the general funds then is there a budget set aside each year to aid the most worthy causes ?
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

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tescaparts
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Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by tescaparts » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Marcel Renshaw wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:43 am
It was with regret that the board decided not to offer funding.
Claudio and John were a number of years into the head project before the club considered helping fund projects.
The club aim to help projects but the policy is that a costed proposal needs to be submitted before the work starts.
From my experience knowing the final cost is troublesome. Foundries often need to see the tooling before quoting for components and machine shops need to know order quantities if fixtures need making , cnc programs writing or special tooling ordering.
One of the big considerations the board were faced with, funding a head project could use 6-10% of the members money.
With 2 suppliers for only 6 heads there was little chance of getting the money back.
The board also hadn't got proposals with enough details to ensure that the heads wouldn't fail again.
I'm sure Claudio has done all the modification needed but that doesn't necessarily satisfy a board or 1750 people who are funding it through their membership contributions.
I would love to put many proposals before the board and get members financial assistance to manufacture much needed parts.
From experience making parts mainly for pre war Daimler and Lanchester cars I know that the payback is often 4-5years with some things longer.
Model registrars are often unsure how many cars exist or their condition. This is often because we don't update them.
The setback with the decision regarding EL24 heads won't stop me promoting other projects for members.It just the start of the learning curve for me and the club.
Yes the club needs to promote itself with club stands, improved websites and also a willingness to fund the remanufacture of obsolete parts.
Please stay with the club and steer it in the right direction. Tell your model registrar about your cars and your needs. The more information we have the better.
Marcel,
please do not publish "alternative facts",there is a man in the USA who is specialist in this!.

It is correct that we tried to find a solution for nearly 4 years and this was well known, in the old forum,too.I can´t believe that the board didn´t knew that.
Through different cirumstances we lost 3 years.In late 2016 we found a solution by using 3D technology to produce heads for a reasonable price.The 3D model was finished in April,the pattern in June and the first head was casted in August.Over all this years NOBODY!! of the board tried to come in touch with me!Mark did his best to keep the board informed and as i know this theme was discussed first at the board meeting in spring.

In August,when i was able to make a concret calculation i contacted Tony Fardoe and offered the datafiles for the costs we had.He asked me lots of details and i tried to answer all his questions.
Additionally i offerd him to meet me in Beaulieu to discuss open questions and i forwarded the mails to you,too.No reaction,no meeting in Beaulieu!!I can publish this correspondence on the forum anytime.

Do you really try to tell us that the boards decision would have been different if we offered something before the work began?Without any idea of the expected costs? That´s a really bad joke!

So it´s completelly not true that the board wasn´t proposed with enough details.
Mark published the result of our meeting in Brooklands on the forum.In this meeting we made the decison to test the heads on my or John´s car before we offer them to other owners.So,no risk for the board!

Please stay with the truth,i take such false representationen very personally!

You ominous second supplier...i heard the first time from him in August 2016.I offered working together,but Andy Wrightson didn´t want that.I played fair and square all the time,but Andy Wrightson never puts his card on the table.Do you know more than we know? Have you ever seen a result of his work?I hope for you and all other owners that a second supplier not will be a dream!

I can say for myself that we have the financial background to bring this project to an end without selling our knowledgemnet to the club.
And,worst case ,the 2 heads we made now will the only be produced ,i´ll enjoy every mile in my car in the future!

Claudio

P.S.: Mark,thank you very much for the brilliant job you do!!!!!
Last edited by tescaparts on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marcel Renshaw
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Location: Derbyshire

Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by Marcel Renshaw » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm

For many years the club has kept away from spares and the funds have laid dormant .
Last year I was asked to join the board to help find ways of making more parts available.
I really hope that others come forward with ideas to ease the parts problem and that money can be made available.
There is probably more willingness now than there has been since the stores closed to try and develop spares networks. It is early days and mistakes will be made.
But I was always told that the person who never made a mistake never made anything.
All of the remarks on the forum will help to direct the club on future proposals.
It be impossible supplying parts for all of the Daimler, Lanchester and BSA variants but together we can save more cars year by year.

Marcel Renshaw
Posts: 252
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Location: Derbyshire

Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by Marcel Renshaw » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:12 pm

I have been asked by Claudio and others to clarify a few points.
Claudio had worked for a number of years on new heads at his own cost before the club decided that it might be something the club could possibly get involved in.
Claudio didn't approach the club for funding. It was more that the club inquired if it could assist in any way.
The club asked for a funding proposal which was submitted and considered.
The option was for the club to buy the data sets for the 3D printing and machining of the heads after Claudio and John's heads had been manufactured and tested on a vehicle.
Andy Wrightson we are told is also developing new heads to a revised pattern but we have little detail regarding this head.
I have had meetings with experts in head design who suggested many things which needed to be considered if the club were to put money into the project. They could also suggest ways to achieve better fuel/air flow and better materials for the manufacture.
The proposal put before the board was good but didn't necessarily answer the questions I and other board members had.
It was also considered that the design work was so far advanced and Claudio had already the finance in place to finish the project that we were too late to move the project forward, as there had already been an head cast and much work done towards the machining.
The club have offered to help advertise the heads and also handle inquiries into heads if that helped.
If Claudio experiences any problems with the head once fitted I am sure that the board would consider offering to help solve the problem.

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tescaparts
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:17 pm

Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by tescaparts » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:23 pm

Marcel Renshaw wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:12 pm
I have been asked by Claudio and others to clarify a few points.
Claudio had worked for a number of years on new heads at his own cost before the club decided that it might be something the club could possibly get involved in.
Claudio didn't approach the club for funding. It was more that the club inquired if it could assist in any way.
The club asked for a funding proposal which was submitted and considered.
The option was for the club to buy the data sets for the 3D printing and machining of the heads after Claudio and John's heads had been manufactured and tested on a vehicle.
Andy Wrightson we are told is also developing new heads to a revised pattern but we have little detail regarding this head.
I have had meetings with experts in head design who suggested many things which needed to be considered if the club were to put money into the project. They could also suggest ways to achieve better fuel/air flow and better materials for the manufacture.
The proposal put before the board was good but didn't necessarily answer the questions I and other board members had.
It was also considered that the design work was so far advanced and Claudio had already the finance in place to finish the project that we were too late to move the project forward, as there had already been an head cast and much work done towards the machining.
The club have offered to help advertise the heads and also handle inquiries into heads if that helped.
If Claudio experiences any problems with the head once fitted I am sure that the board would consider offering to help solve the problem.
Marcel,
thank you for your pm and the claryfication,but i have to correct you again:
The club never came onward me and offered assist!

And why,if there were open questions nobody asked me??

Claudio

Marcel Renshaw
Posts: 252
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Location: Derbyshire

Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by Marcel Renshaw » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:00 pm

There has to be some expectation that if you submit a request that you will send all relevant information.
If you had done FEA ( finite element analysis) etc it would be expected to be submitted.
As you didn't need funding or assistance to move to project forward it appeared that we could not help.

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John-B
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Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by John-B » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:49 pm

I hope this topic is drawing to a close.

Robust discussion is allowed, and so far it has been civilised, but when it becomes a bit of tit-for-tat then it may be locked.

ron.rsp
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:42 am

Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by ron.rsp » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:37 pm

Best if we could avoid closure on the topic which I agree may be going a little off track!
The cars deserve better and I as an owner/custodian would like to think that we can do
the job one way or another to ensure the cars are kept running.
This restoration business is full of pitfalls, one day a high because good progress has been
made other days not so good, this may just be one of the bad days if we mess this up due
to our poor conduct with each other and the Board.

Ron.

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tescaparts
Posts: 35
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Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by tescaparts » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:05 pm

John-B wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:49 pm
I hope this topic is drawing to a close.

Robust discussion is allowed, and so far it has been civilised, but when it becomes a bit of tit-for-tat then it may be locked.
Good evening John,
exactly my opinion..,i don´t want be a part of this timewasting discussion anymore, but it showed me that´s better for me to leave the club next year.
I´ll keep you all up to date of the progress,maybe i can help you with new cylinderheads in the future....
All the best
Claudio

HenryC
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:31 pm
Location: Surrey / East Hampshire

Re: EL24 cylinderhead

Post by HenryC » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:00 pm

Hi Claudio,

I have watched your progress with awe. I am so impressed with what you have done. As an engineer I can appreciate the enormous task you have undertaken.

As a EL24 owner, one of the lucky ones with a running car, I have no immediate need of a cylinder head, but am extremely comforted by the fact you have produced a potential solution to the cylinder head issue.

I have stayed out of the discussion as I don't have the facts. But I would be very sad if we lost touch with you - you have so much knowledge to share and help keep the EL24s on the road.

There are many things said on the forum that can be misunderstood and once in black and white they cannot be unsaid or clarified, as would be possible in a conversation. Enthusiasts are bound to have strong opinions and clashes are inevitable.

We have lost a number of very knowledgeable people from this forum due to harsh words and we are poorer for it.

Claudio, I hope we will continue to hear of your progress and should I ever need a cylinder head for my car - I know who to ask. You may have completed your project by then but at least I know it can be done.
Cheers, Henry

EL24
Conquest (Drop Head) Coupe DJ252
MGB 8-)

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