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Going Hybrid

mickeytwonames
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:46 pm
Location: pershore worcestershire

Going Hybrid

Post by mickeytwonames »

Hope your all doing OK in lockdown
Despite the drop in fuel prices - I've built a hydrogen generator for my Consort.
Works fine - but haven't been able to do any long runs to see what the MPG improvement is.
All the best Michael
Attachments
hho3.jpg
hho1=2.jpg
hho1.jpg

Christopher Storey
Helpful Person
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Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:40 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by Christopher Storey »

Well, at least with the amount of hydrogen generated the explosion when it comes will just be a small pop

Brian-H
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Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by Brian-H »

As implied above, that won't be producing much H2 , so it won't make any difference.

If you were to start producing a lot of H2 , it would in fact reduce the mpg.

The reasons are twofold.

Firstly, the efficiency of producing H2 by electrolysis , is 80% at best , though that is on an industrial scale (anything else will be much less efficient). To save time, I'll quote from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroly ... ial_output "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%, producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg) requires 50–55 kW⋅h (180–200 MJ) of electricity. "
i.e. to produce 143 MJ of H2 requires 180-200 MJ of electricity, but that's by using the most efficient processes on an industrial scale

Secondly, the electricity is coming from the dynamo, which is driven by the engine. Due to the low compression ration of the Consort engine , it is a very inefficient engine, probably around 20%. So assuming that all of the H2 gets cleanly burned, only 20% of its heat output goes to turning the crankshaft. Assuming that the dynamo is 100% efficient (which it won't be) then the absolute best you can hope for is an overall efficiency from creation to burning to creation etc is 40% so, depending on the amount produced, it can only affect the mpg negatively (the overall efficiency must be >100% to improve mpg).

Basically, it's the entropy of the overall process which is the problem (2nd law of thermodynamics) - otherwise, if it were to increase mpg, it would in effect be a form of perpetual motion.

The counter-argument for this sort thing is that mixing H2 with the petrol vapour, somehow increases the combustion efficiency. Let's assume that to be true, well by how much ? Even if it increases the combustion efficiency from 20% to something like 40% (efficiency of a modern diesel), the overall process is still less efficient than not doing it, because of the inefficiency in the production of the H2 by small-scale electrolysis (from crankshaft to dynamo to H2 coming out of the pipe).

mickeytwonames
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:46 pm
Location: pershore worcestershire

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by mickeytwonames »

Thank you for your considered response - very valuable
Few points
1) The bang ain't no small pop - in-fact the wife has banned me from showing it off
2) A tyre kicker from the MOD gave it a once over and the thumbs up.
3) It used a lot of stuff I had in the shed
4) I get to write Hybrid on the boot to silence the 'gas guzzler' brigade
MCP

Brian-H
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Location: UK

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by Brian-H »

Well as it's producing the energy source via the crankshaft it's not really hybrid, along the lines of putting a supercharger on and calling that hybrid.

As you may have noticed in my intro thread, I am considering going fully electric. Before diesels became bad news I had in the past considered swapping out the petrol engine and fitting a diesel engine. But, the best idea if one wants to keep the original petrol engine, would be to fit LPG. Although not straightforward, that would certainly be easier and cheaper than fitting an electric motor plus battery packs & battery management system, however I think that it's becoming harder and harder to find LPG filling stations (while electric charging points are becoming more commonplace).

Brian-H
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Re: Going Hybrid

Post by Brian-H »

Actually, this is quite interesting.

From the internet, 1 kg of petrol has 46 MJ of energy
From previously, 1 kg of H2 has 143 MJ of energy
But petrol has a density of 0.75 kg per litre, whereas H2 has a density in air of only 0.00009 kg per litre

From this very good FAQ on H2 that I've found https://pureenergycentre.com/hydrogen-faq/ , if you look a long way down the list, it says that you need between three to four litres of water to produce the equivalent of 1 litre of petrol. Now I'm not sure if they mean by energy equivalent or by volume equivalent.

Assuming by energy equivalent, if you were to fully convert the engine to run off H2 on its own, and ignoring the dynamo inefficiency, and that you could reach 80% electrolysis efficiency, then the 12 gallon tank of water would be equivalent (at best) to about 3 gallons of petrol, or possibly as low as 1 gallon of petrol (due to all the conversion inefficiencies). Apart from the strain on the dynamo, setting up the H2 metering to each cylinder safely, and the difficulty of starting the car, it would in fact be 100% "green" !!!

But, you'd need to keep on filling the car up with water very very frequently, getting about 2 miles per gallon of water.

So by using a very small amount of H2 from water, mixed with the petrol vapour, I guess that you can claim that, at a barely calculable level, it is a hybrid.

mickeytwonames
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:46 pm
Location: pershore worcestershire

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by mickeytwonames »

If I adopt the Cummins Clause, then a barely calculable level is good enough for me.
Thanks for all your info
I am a master at fooling myself and I can at least now tamper my enthusiasm when explaining it to other people.
When someone asks what the contraption is I'll say its a supercharged windscreen washer unit
Beep Beep
MCP

davidian
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:32 am
Location: la vinuela spain

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by davidian »

Hi Forum readers .On the subject of hybrids ,I was always of the opinion that cars(of that period at least) ran better when the weather was wet, the engine was drawing in moist air and the water molecules were turned into steam at the moment of combustion . Perhaps a petrol steam hybrid could work.
Food for thought from David

Vortex O'Plinth
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:15 pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by Vortex O'Plinth »

Or maybe the future of hybrid could be this.......?
horse.JPG
....and you could put the 'emissions' on your roses!
:D :D ;)
Nick

"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".

Brian-H
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Posts: 1095
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Going Hybrid

Post by Brian-H »

I'm not sure what's going on with this one

Image

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