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1951 LD10 KKV 222

Descriptive and in-depth articles on how to do repairs or restoration. (Wilf's articles visible by forum members only).
Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Vulgalour wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:21 pm
Brian-H wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:29 am
First thing I'd do is check the resistance between brown and blue for each horn. According to PDF page 3 (v), should be 0.28 Ohm . Then see which wire, probably blue, is connected to the chassis (should get 0.00 Ohm from one wire to any of the screws, and, the measured resistance from the other wire to the screw).
Only then, connect directly across a 12V car battery. If everything checked/worked ok, then (not before) remove the domes and cross-check what you can see with the original horns (according to PDF page 3 (iii) you might find an 8 Ohm resistor across the winding in the ebay horns).
The new horns arrived today and following these instructions, we got 0.05-0.11 Ohm on the quieter horn and 0.23-0.32 Ohm on the louder one. On the original horns we got no reading on one of them, and 0.00-0.02ohm on the stripped and rebuilt one. The assembly order of components for the points inside the dome of the new horns is slightly different to the originals, and the coil windings look a lot cleaner. A quick test with a battery revealed both new horns work and the loud one is, even with warning of it being such, shockingly loud. That's an item ticked off the list, though it would be nice to find out just what's gone wrong with the original horns some day.
They should both be as loud as each other, just one a low tone and one a high tone (usually in the same octave I think)

"0.05-0.11 Ohm on the quieter horn" - that seems low, also, if it's quieter, the gap probably not adjusted properly (that's what the screw is for under the rubber underneath) but I'd leave well alone for the time being
"0.23-0.32 Ohm on the louder one" - seems spot on

Does either or both have a resistor across the windings ?

"original horns we got no reading on one of them" - either the gap is open, or a wire has come off somewhere inside
"0.00-0.02ohm on the stripped and rebuilt one" - that's a short circuit somewhere, either in the wiring, or an insulator strip isn't insulating

I could probably get the originals working (no charge) but you'd have to post them to me (and pay for return postage). Alternatively, I might be able to assist by streaming video e.g. skype. Send me a PM if you wish.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Just a thought on those resistances, it's possible that the windings on the coil have degraded over time i.e. the "loud " horn is loud because the current is passing correctly along each winding on the armature, whereas the "quiet" horn is quiet due to a break-down in an area of the coil such that the current is jumping across the winding which reduces the electro-magnetic power. If so, then it's possible that the "quiet" horn is on its way out.

On the original horns it could be that the windings have degraded even further such that on one horn the break-down is in several areas creating a very high current and zero electro-magnet power, and on the other horn it's gone open-circuit in the winding. The only way to tell would be to de-solder the ends of the wires on each coil from the insulator tabs, and then measure the resistance directly. If you still get s/c on one coil and o/c on the other coil, then those horns are dead, but if their coil resistances are correct then it's due to faults on the insulator tab and/or the gap.

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

We may take you up on your test/rebuild offer in the future, once we've a few more items out of the way. We've got at least one properly working horn now so that's good enough for the time being, if we can get all four to be in tip top health that would naturally be the ideal.

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Today's update begins with a mishap. I'd put the back portion and the intermediate panel of the instrument binnacle in the paint stripper pot while we went out to get supplies, it was in there for about 2 hours which was enough time for the slow stripper to remove the very thin layer of paint. Unfortunately, what I hadn't done was remove the rubber and plastic telltales themselves when I did this so they too spend a couple of hours in paint stripper. This was particularly galling as these items were pristine. Fortunately, a good rinse off to neutralise the paint stripper and then leaving them telltale down on the tiled mantlepiece meant the plastic cured back to close to flat again. The rubber seemed totally unaffected, it just came out clean thankfully, but the plastic is now less than perfect which is a shame. Still perfectly legible and once reinstalled you can't really tell there was an issue but still, an annoying and stupid mistake especially given that I usually take so much care.
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A generic chrome aerosol paint was used on the inside of the binnacle (with the instruments etc. removed), and on the back of the intermediate panel. Tests showed much better light distribution so we've opted to go for this rather than the pure white. It also shows just how varied the colour of the dials is.
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Our first attempt to match the colour for the face of the intermediate panel didn't go as well as we'd hoped, the colour matches the lid of the paint bought really well, it just looked far too bright against the dials once everything was mocked up.
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The face of the binnacle was scraped clean of the old scumbled paint and then sanded as carefully as possible so the glass doesn't get damaged. It was then masked off and given a dose of red primer. You can see even more clearly here just how much too bright that first colour guess was.
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Armed with technology, we used the colour scanning app on the other half's phone to find out a best guess for the RAL code for both the intermediate panel and the base coat of the scumbled panel, and then placed an order for some paints. We had to make a best guess on the dials because the colour actually varied a lot, presumably because it's faded over the years. Eventually we ended up with RAL7032 for the intermediate panel, and RAL8025 for the base coat of the scumbled panel. Rustoleum (RAL7032/Pebble Grey) we've used before, it's proven sound long term and would give us the finish we were after. The brown from Evolution (RAL 8025/Pale Brown) is one we've not used before, it goes on very heavily and takes a bit longer to dry but does level out to quite a nice finish and was a very close match to the original brown on the back of the panel. The scumble paint is from Polyvide and is Walnut, again the closest we could find to what was on the panel originally.
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As you can see, the Pebble Grey is a much better match for the dials, not perfect, but close enough. It's mellowed down a bit more than in these photographs and in person the difference isn't so obvious as it is on camera, it looks very similar to how it did originally. The pale brown would be sufficient on its own against the dashboard too, it's really not that out of place in just plain gloss.
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Once that had all dried, the new Scumble tool arrived, it's a soft rubber triangle with a comb on each side that has different thickness teeth. Of the various tools on the market, this one made most sense since the original finish was just straight lines, no fake knots or anything of that sort, so a simple comb style tool seemed most appropriate. A few samples were run over the Pale Brown on some cardboard to get a feel for how much Scumble to use, and how to get the look we wanted. It's tricky stuff to work with, the tutorial videos make it seem much easier than it is. The paint has a very long open time, with a 24 hour drying period. This long open time is good for getting the look you want since you can play about with the finish quite a bit. After a few passes with the comb and a brush, we eventually got something approximating the original look. Depending how this dries, I may go back with a fine brush and add some extra variation to the strip thicknesses just to make it match the dashboard a bit better. Of all the items on the dashboard, this one thing has been the most difficult to do. I'm also left with a lot of scumble material and nothing to scumble (currently) because even the smallest quantities I could acquire were far more than was needed. Given just how far the materials go it's very easy to see why this was such a widely used finish, it's fairly quick to apply and I expect with practice and slightly differently shaped tools, an even more convincing wood grain could be achieved.
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So there you go, my first attempt at scumble work. Apologies for the quality of the photos in this update too, my camera has really not wanted to play nice lately.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

My painting skills don't even go as far as walls. I'm ok with fences and gates but that's my limit. I had to look up "scumble" and I can only marvel at anyone who attempts that and gets the result you've achieved.

Petelang
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Petelang »

I should think Vulgalour, that you will be inundated with Lanchester owners offering their panels to be scumbled so surely, your excess materials will never go to waste.
Fabulous job for a first attempt at a new skill.
I wish I had your knowledge of the technology involved in the paint matching too.
Well done.
Peter
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Sydsmith
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Sydsmith »

Indeed that sort of restoration work has always defeated me, can't help admiring your joint determination and abilities.

I see you had a mention and a picture of your car appears in the October DLOC magazine. If you are not a member join quickly and I am sure you will get a copy. Syd

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

I suppose with the scumbling it helps that I'm a full-time artist so I've got some experience of how to get from an idea to a reality. I have to say, I'm surprised at how well it turned out for a first attempt all the same, with practice I could probably do even better and naturally I've been looking around the house to see if there's anything else I can learn on that I've not already restored! You can find some of my work in printable form over on Redbubble: https://www.redbubble.com/people/angylroper I haven't got any Lanchester or Daimler content in there yet, I imagine something will appear eventually, I've been rather busy this year with other commission work so I've not had chance to create much new content for the print shop for a while.

---

Big milestone achieved today after a lot of fiddly work which is that the dashboard is back together. The driver's side box that collapsed when we removed the dashboard also put up a fight with two of the brackets that are supposed to be attached to the box with copper rivets. Because the box collapsed around the rivets due to what looks like water damage that we've since repaired, two of the aluminium brackets were left behind on the dashboard. A combination of hammers, a fine tooth saw, screwdrivers, and pliers, eventually got the old screws out. Not only had the screws mostly rusted away, they'd also corroded to the aluminium since the screws are steel and formed a pretty permanent bond.
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We could have bought new copper rivets to reattach the boxes but in all honesty, with the exception of two, the old rivets were still pliable and perfectly suitable for reattaching the boxes so we did just that. Once the brackets were properly rivetted back on the boxes, the fabric was then glued down to them and the edges of the boxes as per the original fabric, before being screwed in place with new screws, this time crossheaded rather than flat since that's what was available. It's behind the dashboard so the 'wrong' heads aren't going to matter. We also got lucky with the choke cable, previously I'd ordered some pvc tube to thread through the choke cable sheath, insert the choke cable into, and then pull the whole lot through. After two attempts to get the correct inner and outer diameter of pvc tube failed due to the fine tolerances of the space available, even though the theory of the job is sound, I thought I'd just give it one last go threading the choke cable in and amazingly it actually went in fine. It took two of us to actually get the cable home properly because it was difficult to keep the cable and the sheath straight as it was threaded, but that's all back in properly now so we're happy. The pull knobs will align correctly once the cables are attached, they're just wonky in this shot because of how the cables and sheaths are resting while the dashboard is off the car.
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The instrument binnacle was also reinstalled. It took closer to 48 hours than 24 hours for the scumble to eventually dry and while it's not the best scumbling job in the world, it doesn't actually look bad next to the refurbished wood of the dashboard so we were happy to keep it as it is. Before screwing the binnacle in place, a small bead of sealant was run around the recess it sits in to mimic what was there when we removed it, presumably this is to stop the binnacle rattling in the dashboard and provide a little damping for the gauges so they don't jiggle about too much. The binnacle is now held in properly with two new screws rather than the one old one holding it in when we got it. We're absolutely delighted with how this turned out, the time and effort invested has really paid off. The temperature gauge will be fitted once the dashboard is back in the car, that way we don't risk breaking the capillary tube. You can very easily get to all the screws holding the instruments to the binnacle when the dashboard is fitted so it'll be no hardship to sort this out later.
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We finally managed to find a combination of camera, lighting, and flash to really show off how beautiful this wood is too, we're very excited about putting the interior back together which we'll be able to do once we've got the wiper mechanism and motor sorted out properly.
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We're quite happy to say we're both very proud of what we've achieved with this.
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Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

Sydsmith wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:50 pm I see you had a mention and a picture of your car appears in the October DLOC magazine. If you are not a member join quickly and I am sure you will get a copy. Syd
We've been holding off joining the club because, and I don't want this to come across the wrong way, I don't really know what we'd get that we're not getting already. We're not really interested in doing events and shows, or really other Lanchesters and Daimlers, and while it seems the magazine is a nicely put together thing again, it's not something we're terribly interested in. The forum, sharing of information, and hopefully helping other owners out with anything we learn along the way is the appeal. We'd rather spend the membership fee on something else as things stand. If there's some sort of incentive for signing up other than the magazine and events then we'd be happy to hear it of course, perhaps we're missing out on something and signing up is worthwhile for us. We're not wedded to the brand, we just like old cars of all sorts, so joining clubs isn't really something we do.

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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by John-B »

Vulgalour, about half the forum members aren't DLOC members, so you have good company. :)
In many cases we learn from new forum members about their cars which we didn't know about and which need restoration and can help them, but in your case I think we are learning more from you than you from us! :D
Needless to say, the Club would like all forum members to be members of the Club, but restricting the forum to Club members only is something I have said in the past that I'm not in favour of and doesn't seem likely in the near future. We need to know about all old Club cars and a free forum is a good place to hear about them and the registrars can add to the statistics.
Coincidentally a day before your post I did look at the internet to see what was involved in setting up a donation button and that may appear in due course. The Club and Board have to agree to it. In the meantime anyone wanting to give the Club a donation can use the Club's ad hoc payment system with credit card or PayPal here:
https://www.dloc.org.uk/adhoc

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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by heh101353 »

Many folks, don’t think about what it takes to provide a service like a web site and/or forum like the one we have here at the DLOC.
Apart from the volunteers there is always money involved. There is no “free diner”.

The big players like Facebook, Google, you name ‘em reap profit from the data they gather. While this should have arrived at any brain out there the predominant thinking still is, most of what is used on the Internet is for free. No, it is not.

A donation button isn’t a bad idea. Far better than a payment/donation service some clicks away.
It should be prominent and easy to use. The buzzword is “One Click”. Again the big players show us how it has to be done and I guess everybody will chime in to the chorus: “They know how to make it easy to spend some cash”.
By the way I would vote against a “member only forum”.
Just my 2 cents.

@Vulgalour
Brilliant job. I’m really impressed.
:o owner since 2015 :mrgreen:
https://www.wyhe.ch/

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