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UFOs & Aliens

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Do aliens and UFOs exist? (Two choices which you can change.)

Aliens do exist (over 70% sure). (UFOs are manned and are not just robotic drones.)
3
18%
Aliens don't exist.
4
24%
I'm not sure about aliens.
1
6%
UFOs are alien-made (over 90% sure).
4
24%
UFOs are man-made.
3
18%
I'm not sure about UFOs.
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

Brian-H
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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

John-B wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:05 am It does seem clear to me that a big shock is needed to create the conditions for greater intelligence, either via aliens changing DNA or changing the climate with a catastrophe.

The dinosaurs just got gradually bigger and bigger as prey got larger and predators got larger to match them. Their brains still had the same basic functions of eat, sleep, breed and protect over the entire period of hundreds of millions of years until they got wiped out. The same probably happened when earlier mass extinctions brought in the dinosaurs. So other planets might also need a shock to produce intelligent beings or existence of life there would just stay at a low level.

Were these changes by alien intervention?
Well if it always requires alien intervention, then how did the first species get off their planet ? By such logic, it doesn't require alien intervention, just a sun that's there long enough whilst a species evolves, and the time to evolve is not set by our own timescale, it could be quicker.

For me, the main problem is the time that inter-stellar travel takes i.e. the timescale for a species to evolve for machine flight is not the issue for contact.

The next evolution stage will be AI machines, 100 years from now the human population will decline, not necessarily by pandemic or war, but as a natural consequence of the lack of requirement for offspring.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by John-B »

If UFOs aren't alien then those seen are probably US black ops or Russian or Chinese.

If the flying saucers seen by thousands of people flying in daylight over the White House were American secret projects then how stupid can they get? That's hardly a good way to keep them secret.

Dark triangular craft the size of a football field have been seen for decades including one seen for several days flying over Belgium. Why Belgium? These craft can hover so may be supported by helium and designed as troop carriers, but after forty or fifty years have never entered production, If they work, why not, and if they don't work then why haven't they been discarded?

Animal abductions have been happening for fifty years in the southern US states, sometimes followed by black unmarked helicopters when dead animals are apparently dropped at night. If these are US military abductions why have such secrecy? A plausible explanation is that they have been tested for radioactivity after the nuclear bomb tests in the southern US states but with such a huge black ops budget why aren't the animals bought instead of stolen and the subject of open research?

It just goes to show how the US military and CIA are up to no good. I've no doubt they have been involved in illegal activity and need to be held to account, especially in the realm of germ warfare and genetic research, but no doubt they don't trust politicians to keep their mouths shut. :D

Secrecy just keeps the UFO and Alien theories alive, but I still love the stories.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

Plenty of fantasists in the world, those UFO programmes abound with them. Just as with election fraud in the US, there's no fact behind any of it.

A few years ago one of my sons was out in his car about 50 miles away when it "broke down" just as he got to his destination. He called me and I said I'd come and fix it (something to do with the brakes it seemed) but he said he'd already found a local car recovery to bring it back for £70. When it arrived back, I was talking to the driver who looked younger than 50. I told him that joining the army might knock some sense into my son, to which the chap said he'd been in the army in Northern Ireland. He told me which regiment, and recounted an incident that had happened while he was there. It sounded very plausible, but I decided to see if I could find said incident after he had gone. I found a website that listed all incidents in Northern Ireland involving the army, where you could search by regiment. I could not find anything that matched what he had told me, involving that regiment, or any other. There have been other people I know who have recounted incidents that they were involved in, that sounded just like something I've seen on some police TV programmes.

Whilst it's fairly natural to fantasise, what is not natural is to recount the fantasies to other people, but for some reason, quite a few people do. They're basically "acting out" and often start to believe their own stories, but you can still suss them out even when they're gone that deeply into fantasising.

These are the sorts of people that appear as "witnesses" on these UFO programmes. Once you get to know their traits, the slight variation in tone at various points in their story, or slight variation in eye contact, or the body language, you can spot them a mile away. If anyone wants to become skilled at sussing out fantasists, I'd recommend watching "witnesses" in the UFO programmes.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by John-B »

When you see recordings of radar images which are confirmed by pilots chasing a UFO and recorded on the aircraft radar too, it isn't fantasy, but of course it might be a high-flying kite or balloon.

These UFO episodes are nearly always in calm weather and I often wonder what happens in high wind or rain. Alien craft would presumably be able to cope. If UFOs are military projects then it's understandable that they choose good weather which tends to make me believe that they are man-made.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

Radar is not infallible. That is why commercial airliners use transponders which air traffic control relies on primarily.

The stuff about military aircraft chasing UFOs is either people on the periphery of the military having a laugh at the public's expense, or stuff released just to mislead. There are no military aircraft that can fly better than the types finally refined in the 70's, the planes that came out later just have more efficient engines and less drag due to computer-controlled flight (if the computer-control fails, it's bail-out time). There are no experimental shapes that are superior to what exists in the real world, what the US/Russia/China/UK/France has, cannot be bettered. The maths behind weight, lift, drag and thrust are so highly developed that there is no need for any aircraft designer to ever go beyond a computer model, followed by a small-scale prototype in a wind tunnel if it looks feasible, then a full-scale prototype and then production - it's the same with cars.

The only possibility of "aliens" developing something better, such that they can enter our atmosphere in a way that doesn't require a heat shield, and then fly around in our atmosphere in a fashion that does not relate to the maths behind weight, lift, drag and thrust, would be some kind of "anti-gravity". I've researched that, and keep meaning to write a long post on it, but suffice to say, "anti-gravity" does not obey Newtonian physics, or any other physics, unless we live in e.g. a 4-dimensional universe in which case David Icke is proabably right about shape-shifting lizards.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

It's important to really see the size of our galaxy (the Milky Way), its rotation, and also details about the edge of our Solar System. IMO the idea of extra-terrestrial visitation to earth just trivialises the scale of the problems of interstellar travel, not just in terms of time involved, but fuel load, and preservation of any on-board humanoid lifeforms.

The Milky Way

1. The Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy with an estimated visible diameter of 1.9 million light-years. It is estimated to contain 100–400 billion stars and at least that number of planets. There is suspected to be a dark matter halo around the Milky Way which may span as much as 2 million light years.

2. The Milky Way rotates with a rotational period of about 240 million years at the radius of our Solar System. The Milky Way as a whole, as well as rotating, is also moving at a velocity of approximately 600 km per second through the universe with respect to extragalactic frames of reference.

3. Our Solar System (marked Sun in image below) is located at a radius of about 27,000 light-years from the Galactic Center, on the inner edge of the Orion Arm, one of the spiral-shaped concentrations of gas and dust.
milky_way.jpg

Our Solar System

1. Aristarchus of Samos (c. 310 – c. 230 BC) presented the first known heliocentric model that placed the Sun at the center of the known universe (at the time) with the Earth revolving around it. [note that "helio" is Greek for "sun", so e.g. heliocentric means having the sun as the centre]

2. Aristarchus was influenced by Philolaus of Croton, but Aristarchus identified the "central fire" with the Sun, and he put the other planets in their correct order of distance around the Sun. 100 years earlier, Anaxagoras said that the stars were just other bodies like the Sun, albeit farther away from Earth.

3. Eratosthenes of Cyrene (c. 276 BC– c. 194 BC) was a Greek mathematician, geographer, and astronomer, and is best known for being the first person to calculate the circumference of the Earth, his calculation was very accurate.

4. Astronomical Units [AU] (150,000,000 km; 93,000,000 mi) are used to represent distances within our Solar System. 1 AU is the distance from Earth to the Sun.

5. The Sun's mass is 1.9885×1030 kg, it contains 99.86% of our Solar System's known mass, and dominates our solar system gravitationally.

6. The heliosphere is a vast, bubble-like region of space created by the Sun. In plasma physics terms, it is a cavity formed by the Sun in the surrounding interstellar medium. The "bubble" of the heliosphere is continuously "inflated" by plasma originating from the Sun, known as the solar wind.
heliosphere_revised.jpg
7. Outside the heliosphere, this solar plasma gives way to the interstellar plasma permeating the Milky Way. Radiation levels inside and outside the heliosphere differ; in particular, the galactic cosmic rays are less abundant inside the heliosphere, so that the planets inside (including Earth) are partly shielded from their impact

8. Due to the fact that the Solar System is travelling through space, the heliosphere is not spherical and has a "bow wave" as shown in the image below
VoyagerProgram&Heliosphere-Chart-20181210.jpg
9. Voyager 2 was launched in August 1977, flew past Jupiter in 1979, Saturn in 1981, Uranus in 1986, and Neptune in 1989. The probe left the heliosphere for interstellar space at 119 AU on 5 November 2018. It is not headed toward any particular star, although if undisturbed for 296,000 years, it should pass by the star Sirius at a distance of 4.3 light-years.

10. Voyager 1 was launched in September 1977, flew past Jupiter in 1979 and Saturn in 1980, making a special close approach to Saturn's moon Titan. The probe passed the heliopause at 121 AU on 25 August 2012 to enter interstellar space. It is headed towards an encounter with star AC +79 3888, which lies 17.6 light-years from Earth, in about 40,000 years.

11. Note that the initial speed required to escape the Sun from its surface would be 618 km/s (1,380,000 mph), dropping to to 42.1 km/s (94,000 mph) at Earth's distance from the Sun (1 AU), and 4.21 km/s (9,400 mph) at a distance of 100 AU. Note also that both Voyagers are still active, but are expected to become "derelict" in 2025. The speeds and current distances of both Voyagers are illustrated below. Both have been travelling ~15 km/s for the last 30 years. Voyager 1 is ~180 AU from the Sun, Voyager 2 is ~160 AU from the Sun.
Voyager_speed_and_distance_from_Sun.jpg

Inference

When you take all of the above into account, using the technologies that are currently known, it seems completely implausible for aliens to reach our Solar System, land on earth, and then take off again and then leave our Solar System.

If we were to send a probe to a nearby star, in order to reduce the travel time, the probe would have to carry fuel to continually accelerate (using e.g. ion drive). But at half-way point it would then need to rotate by 180 degrees so that the thrust was used to start to continually decelerate the probe, else it would just fly right through the target star's planetary system at tremendous velocity and be impossible to enter orbit round the target star. Furthermore, if a craft carried humanoid lifeforms on board, they would be continually irradiated by the interstellar plasma in the Milky Way.

The only other way would be some technology that we are not aware of e.g. "anti-gravity" but that is a non-starter (does not exist, more to come soon, ish).

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by John-B »

Brian-H wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:05 pm When you take all of the above into account, using the technologies that are currently known, it seems completely implausible for aliens to reach our Solar System, land on earth, and then take off again and then leave our Solar System.

If we were to send a probe to a nearby star, in order to reduce the travel time, the probe would have to carry fuel to continually accelerate (using e.g. ion drive). But at half-way point it would then need to rotate by 180 degrees so that the thrust was used to start to continually decelerate the probe, ...
Conventional travel using current technologies and ion acceleration isn't what ufologists suggest. Nearly all programmes I have watched mention bending of time and space as predicted by Einstein so that travel would be instantaneous. Admittedly, some form of apparatus would be needed to receive and then return visitors to their home planet. Aliens are assumed to have very advanced technologies which have achieved this time travel, hence the concept of portals on Earth such as the one where Spanish invaders saw a priest disappear into a solid rock-cut doorway. :D A recent programme sometimes said that bending time and space to visit us would be from another universe and sometimes said that it would be from elsewhere in our universe. Obviously some uncertainty there.

My current view is that ghosts, yetis, UFOs, aliens, etc. are all the same, they can appear and disappear, travel through walls, etc. but never make a sound.

I think my Dart must have achieved time travel, I bought it in 1968 with about 50,000 miles on the clock, sold it in 1973 with about 74,000 miles, bought it back in 2013 when it still had 74,000 on the clock and it still had the same rear wheels AND TYRES, same seats, bodywork, etc.. :D

Hasn't anyone else got any views on UFOs, aliens, etc.?

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

John-B wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 am
Brian-H wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:05 pm When you take all of the above into account, using the technologies that are currently known, it seems completely implausible for aliens to reach our Solar System, land on earth, and then take off again and then leave our Solar System.

If we were to send a probe to a nearby star, in order to reduce the travel time, the probe would have to carry fuel to continually accelerate (using e.g. ion drive). But at half-way point it would then need to rotate by 180 degrees so that the thrust was used to start to continually decelerate the probe, ...
Conventional travel using current technologies and ion acceleration isn't what ufologists suggest. Nearly all programmes I have watched mention bending of time and space as predicted by Einstein so that travel would be instantaneous. Admittedly, some form of apparatus would be needed to receive and then return visitors to their home planet. Aliens are assumed to have very advanced technologies which have achieved this time travel, hence the concept of portals on Earth
This is really the only "get-out clause" that these UFO TV programs can exploit, but, being very generous here, it is a tenuous claim

John-B wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 am ..... such as the one where Spanish invaders saw a priest disappear into a solid rock-cut doorway. :D
PMSL

John-B wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 am A recent programme sometimes said that bending time and space to visit us would be from another universe and sometimes said that it would be from elsewhere in our universe. Obviously some uncertainty there.
Either way, there's clearly no requirement for them to fly around in the sky in craft, saucer-shaped or otherwise.
Furthermore the never-ending blather about Roswell and "black ops" and "reverse engineering" doesn't concur with bending time and space

John-B wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 am My current view is that ghosts, yetis, UFOs, aliens, etc. are all the same, they can appear and disappear, travel through walls, etc. but never make a sound.
Or maybe they're all being seen by the same type of human weirdo

John-B wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 am I think my Dart must have achieved time travel, I bought it in 1968 with about 50,000 miles on the clock, sold it in 1973 with about 74,000 miles, bought it back in 2013 when it still had 74,000 on the clock and it still had the same rear wheels AND TYRES, same seats, bodywork, etc.. :D
I wish that my brain would function as well as that :D

John-B wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 am Hasn't anyone else got any views on UFOs, aliens, etc.?
Ditto

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Sydsmith »

This topic started out as a bit of a prod and has developed into a hefty in depth debate on the more scientific aspects of what has always been widely regarded as fantasy or fact depending on your point of view.

There are billions of stars and planets out there and mans ability to think outside the box is limited to the time we live in, so it has to be possible that some form of life beyond our current reasoning could exist out there.

As recently as the late 50's when the transistor had just been introduced and the only way you could get a phone installed was to await the convenience of Post Office Telephones, the possibility that I could be driving my car along the local lanes and byways whilst talking on my hands free mobile phone to my wife back home, let alone that I could be sitting hear in my lounge typing away on my laptop and you could be reading this would have been laughed at.

Have to go now a huge cigar shaped object has just landed on my back lawn :D :D

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

One of these just landed in my garden :shock:
giant-bottle.jpg
giant-bottle.jpg (26.58 KiB) Viewed 49233 times
It had some small mushrooms inside so I cooked them in an omelette and just after I finished eating the omelette I found myself inside the bottle, and then it started to hover over the house. Luckily it turned upside-down and I tumbled through the skylight in the roof straight onto the sofa. Lucky escape or what :oops:

A couple of thousand years ago something somewhat different happened to another Brian in Jerusalem

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