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UFOs & Aliens

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Do aliens and UFOs exist? (Two choices which you can change.)

Aliens do exist (over 70% sure). (UFOs are manned and are not just robotic drones.)
3
18%
Aliens don't exist.
4
24%
I'm not sure about aliens.
1
6%
UFOs are alien-made (over 90% sure).
4
24%
UFOs are man-made.
3
18%
I'm not sure about UFOs.
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

Brian-H
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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

I read this today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-55769269 and in all seriousness I did actually think that therein could be a hypothesis that, in some form, alien life did make its way here 100 million years ago.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Fossil »

Gentlemen

Recommended reading from the 'We ARE Alone' front line. I came across the book 'Rare Earth' by Peter Ward and Don Brownlee late last year, as a result of the discussions in this thread. It was first published in 1999, I don't know how I missed it then, but never mind. The authors are both professors at the University of Washington in Seattle, the former of geological sciences and zoology and the latter of astronomy, with an interest in astrobiology. Together they present a superb case for this planet, and the complex intelligent life upon it, being extremely unusual and possibly very rare, in this galaxy and beyond, in a very readable and logical way; just the way my own thoughts had been leaning but rather better developed with much more evidence. I lapped it up!

They theorise that simple cellular life is likely to be very frequent in this galaxy and throughout the universe, but that the time and stable physical conditions required for the development of complex multicellular life - around 4.5 billion years in our case - make the possibility of its development extremely unlikely. They point out that current knowledge suggests that our solar system including the sun itself is potentially extremely rare in its structure, that the earth is exceptional in terms of the conditions required for the existence of liquid water on its surface for over 4 billion years, and that the presence of such a favourable habitable zone is unlikely around the majority of stars.

They also note the probable existence of habitable zones in all galaxies, generally a band outside the galaxy core free from the possibilty of regular extreme irradiation events and also away from the galactic rim which is likely to be metal poor having few stars, and therefore unlikely to have the range of elements necessary for the development of complex life, and they suggest that this further reduces, considerably, the number of stars with the potential to support complex life on associated planet(s) in any galaxy.

More recently they have written another book entitled 'The Life and Death of Planet Earth', in which they propose that conditions on earth, apart from the possibility of an extinction event in the form of a nearby supernova or collision with a substantial impactor, will become steadily more inhospitable to complex life over a forthcoming period of millions of years, due to the liklihood that the sun's energy output will continue to increase overe the second half of its c 10 billion year lifetime. So, long before the sun expands into its red giant final phase of life. Therefore they propose that complex life has a limited lifetime wherever it evolves, and that the peak period of complex life on the Earth has already been passed, perhaps by many millions of years.

Other interesting possible circumstances that could limit conditions favourable to complex life which emerge in this book include both further probable extensive glaciation in the not so distant future (our current interglacial period that has led to human civilisation is already longer than the average of past interglacials in the current ice age), and also exhaustion of the heat-generating radioactive isotopes which heat the planet's core and mantle, bringing plate tectonics to a gradual end. In the absence of plate tectonics atmospheric carbon dioxide levels may fall bringing plant photosynthesis and oxygen production to an end, with the end of all complex life. The authors consider plate tectonics to be among the many important factors essential to the evolution of complex life through its role in the carbon cycle and carbon silicate cycle which stabilise carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere.

This takes us back to the formation of the moon following the collision with the smaller planet Theia, which donated much of its core to the earth leaving the moon to form from the lighter minerals of the two planets' crusts. Thus the earth gained a relatively large core with relatively more heavy hot isotopes, both rather fortuitous factors regarding the subsequent evolution of complex life, while the moon got much of the lighter stuff while itself becoming important in the evolution of life over the next 4 2 billion years or thereabouts.

Something else that occurs to me but isn't mentioned in these books is that there have been roughly three 4.5 billion year periods since the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago. How early is it likely that sufficient metals for the development of complex organic life - carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and so on, plus the heavier elements which are much less easy to forge, to keep the cores of rocky planets hot - might have been created in violent star death and blown out in into interstellar space in sufficient quantities to seed later generations of star nurseries, and create conditions favourable to a near 5 billion year process? I wonder if it took up to c 9 billion years for such conditions to arise, in which case it's not very likely that there are many older, more advanced civilisations than ours in this galaxy right now; hence the Fermi Paradox, or, where is everybody?

Regards

Geoff

Brian-H
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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

That's a very good synopsis and very convincing. Very bleak too :(

There's a fundamental problem though, which is the assumption that the present model of the universe is correct. I've never seen a good explanation of what light is, and thus telescopes (and radio-telescopes), which are the basis for the data that feeds the models, could well be giving us a false idea of the age and nature of the universe. It's a bit like the beliefs, before Galileo, that the earth was at the centre of what could be seen. It wasn't until Galileo and then Newton, that the idea that the earth orbited the sun came about. Furthermore, up until ~100 years ago, it was thought that there was only 1 galaxy. Now that we know the basic "construction" of solar systems and galaxies, doesn't mean that the big-bang theory and the age of what we think we can see, is correct.

I'd rather believe that aliens are visiting earth somehow or other, rather than believe that we are, and are destined to be, the only complex lifeform in an infinite universe.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by John-B »

The American Project Bluebook came to the conclusion that UFOs were not a threat to the nation's security, which may have been the conclusion that the government and CIA wanted, but it is true that most UFOs are most likely ball lightning or some kind of electro-magnetic discharge from the ground due to earth tectonic plate movement. We know that lightning strikes can damage buildings even though there is no substance in the lightning, so ball lightning may be the same, capable of causing damage to vehicles or planes, like the train severely damaged by a crash into a UFO which left no debris from the UFO. American secret flying objects probably account for most of the remainder of UFO sightings.

As for alien abductions, they could be just dreams. Hypnosis may not be getting at the truth if dreams are so deeply embedded in the mind that hypnosis just concludes that they did happen when they didn't. Lie detectors may also not be as good as we believe if dreams are so deeply embedded that they appear to be true.

I just wish that more effort was put into solving the many mysteries that exist. Why did the Egyptians build huge pyramids with several chambers that never had a mummy, and ducts that had chemical residues in them? Were they built just because of imagination about Gods, or as a genuine physical experiment or advice from aliens?

Was there a very advanced culture existing before the advent of written records by the Sumerians? There's a long period between 3000BC and the end of the ice age 10000BC when advanced civilisations could have existed without alien help.

Does Atlantis exist under the sea before being flooded at the end of the ice age? There are several candidates.

So many questions. I don't think I will ever see proof of aliens in my lifetime.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »


Brian-H
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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

John-B wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:40 am The American Project Bluebook came to the conclusion that UFOs were not a threat to the nation's security, which may have been the conclusion that the government and CIA wanted, but it is true that most UFOs are most likely ball lightning or some kind of electro-magnetic discharge from the ground due to earth tectonic plate movement. We know that lightning strikes can damage buildings even though there is no substance in the lightning, so ball lightning may be the same, capable of causing damage to vehicles or planes, like the train severely damaged by a crash into a UFO which left no debris from the UFO. American secret flying objects probably account for most of the remainder of UFO sightings.
I'd contend that all UFOs are either illusions (fata morgana etc) or delusions (not real in the atmosphere but imagined in the brain due to some strong chemical or strong field effect).

As for ball lightning, there are numerous theories for its existence. Small orbs can be generated in a microwave oven (not tried it myself and not recommending anyone to try this) by placing a lighted match or candle in the microwave oven, extinguish the flame, then shut the door and turn on full power. One very reasonable hypothesis in nature is that they tend to occur near HV lines (strong magnetic fields) or they are due to "vapourised silicon" (silicon is abundant in soil and sand). Where there is no physical evidence, it's also said to be due to strong electrical discharge near the observer which stimulates spontaneous firing of nerves in the visual cortex.

Note that a typical lightning strike carries 1 gigajoule of energy which is equivalent to 240 kg of TNT. Lightning will thus easily damage buildings, which is why tall buildings e.g. church spires have lightning conductors to carry the current to earth without going through the building's structure. Cars, trains and aircraft are not damaged by lightning - this is because the skin of the car/train/plane acts as a Farady cage - indeed getting into a car is the safest place during a heavy thunderstorm.

The train/UFO incident is the 2002 Paintsville coal train incident widely debunked here - one person's comment
The railroad & coal mine version of "The dog ate my homework" - instead of "Boy, did we ever goof at the coal mine's tipple" i.e. the locomotive ran into the tipple at the loading bay and they all colluded to say it was a UFO.
John-B wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:40 am As for alien abductions, they could be just dreams. Hypnosis may not be getting at the truth if dreams are so deeply embedded in the mind that hypnosis just concludes that they did happen when they didn't. Lie detectors may also not be as good as we believe if dreams are so deeply embedded that they appear to be true.
Absolutely
John-B wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:40 am I just wish that more effort was put into solving the many mysteries that exist. Why did the Egyptians build huge pyramids with several chambers that never had a mummy, and ducts that had chemical residues in them? Were they built just because of imagination about Gods, or as a genuine physical experiment or advice from aliens?
The great pyramid of Giza was built 4,500 years ago, and has been looted multiple times and stripped bare. If you leave a building empty for 4.5 centuries, what's going to happen to the interior fabric of the building, where the weather can vary between 2C to 46C and extremely dry to extremely humid ?
John-B wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:40 am Was there a very advanced culture existing before the advent of written records by the Sumerians? There's a long period between 3000BC and the end of the ice age 10000BC when advanced civilisations could have existed without alien help.
An intriguing possibility, though if it was before the advent of written records, how did the civilisation become advanced ? (Isambard Kingdom Brunel would have found it difficult to have his railways, ships, bridges, tunnels built without being able to design them on paper).
John-B wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:40 am Does Atlantis exist under the sea before being flooded at the end of the ice age? There are several candidates.
Written in 360 BC, Plato introduced the story Atlantis in Timaeus and was possibly a fictional or metaphorical myth. If Plato did base it on a real event, it was most likely the devastation of the Minoan civilisation by the Thera eruption where Santorini is. That eruption is dated to around 1400 years before Plato and was such a monumentous event that word-of-mouth would have carried the story until Plato got hold of it.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Sydsmith »

I am fascinated by the extent of your knowledge Brian H and most of all wonder at how you manage to keep it all together given the timing of your posts, do you ever manage to get any sleep? No disrespect intended just interested as to how you do it. Syd

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

There is an error in "what I wrote" - If you leave a building empty for 4.5 centuries doh 4500 divided by 100 is 45 not 4.5 so The Great Pyramid of Giza has been standing there baking in the sun and cooling in the autumn through the seasons for 45 centuries.

I would be hopeless at Mastermind or Pointless or Eggheads or any other game - unless i was allowed to use a laptop.

What I do have is an extremely broad knowledge of concepts, particularly in physics and general engineering. I started a degree in Physics but packed it in after 1 year, then 2 years later I did a degree in Electrical and Electronics Engineering. In the first year of that degree we all (except for Chem Eng) did the same foundation year - so it covered foundation Mech Eng, Civil Eng, Elec Eng (Power lines etc), and Control Eng (feedback systems). After finishing the degree (Comms Eng and Electronics Eng in final year) I applied for a job at the BBC. I had 2 interviews but was declined, probably because I was too cocky and/or didn't know any details about recording to magnetic media (this is before Beetamax/VHS let alone Digital). I ended up in jobs mostly in "instrumentation" and along the way I did a Masters which included Software modelling (crude in those days), then later a Masters in Marketing. None of that got me anywhere as I didn't want to become a "software engineer" or get into "management" because I rather enjoyed the hands-on tech stuff. When I got into Mobile Phone networks in the 90s the rates were astronomical, but those high rates were brief and plummeted after the 3G spectrum auctions, so I looked at Renewable Energy and decided that wasn't going to pay more either (unless one had a degree in Civil Eng or heavy Elec Eng) - if I had my time again I'd have gone into Elec/Power Eng as that had/has a longer and deeper Engineering depth than electronics or comms.

The other thing is that I mostly watch factual TV programmes - always have done - particularly Space exploration, History and Archaeology stuff.

When I listen to/look at a statement (technical or otherwise) that doesn't fit with my knowledge (as a concept rather than detailed facts) I go to the internet to put the meat back onto the bones (which doesn't take long) and summarise with a few facts. So Atlantis: google "who wrote Atlantis" and find Plato 350 BC etc, then "Atlantis Bettany Hughes" and find her theory about Santorini and the Minoans (I remember her very good documentaries on the subject). The "Paintsville train incident" was not something I'd encountered before but I found it by just googling something like "train hits UFO" or similar.

My sleep patterns have always been all over the place, it varies from night-owl to early-bird. So 4am can either be end of night in night-owl phase, or early-bird in daylight phase.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

I've found an online "copy" of the Horizon episode on anti-gravity called "Project Greenglow The Quest For Gravity Control". I'd have said it was first broadcast at least 10 years ago, but according to wikipedia it was Episode 2 of Series 52, first broadcast 23 March 2016.

Note that this "copy" is back-to-front (seen that before on some bootlegged online copies) and as well as the sound being out of sync, it's also running a bit slow so it doesn't quite run to the very end. Short ads every 5 to 10 minutes too.

At 8 minutes into the programme it references Eric Braithwaite's 1974 Royal Institution Christmas Lectures, which I saw on TV back then. Previously a highly reputed Electrical Engineer, this destroyed his reputation, because basically he was saying that gyroscopic forces can overcome Newton's laws of motion - they don't. At the time there was of course no internet so it was difficult to know whether he was right or not, but most Physicists of the time knew he was wrong. IIRC there was another documentary ~15 years later claiming similar things for space propulsion (using onboard gyroscopes spun by electric motors to propel the spacecraft). Basically Newton's 3 laws of motion hold sway within our solar system, probably within our galaxy, but who knows what's going on in the space between galaxies. There's loads of other stuff in the video as well.

EDIT the last 11 minutes here. The first part is 59 minutes, second part is 11 minutes, it should be 59 minutes in total , so the copy runs at about 85% normal speed for some reason.

If you want to watch without the annoying ads, leave the first part running for just under an hour while you do something else, then come back and start from the beginning again and the ads won't show during the re-run.
Although it's back-to-front, sound out of sync, runs slightly slow, it's worth putting up with that just so see why antigravity is unlikely.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Fossil »

Hi everyone

I've just come across the following item that is highly relevant to our discussions and contributed by two very eminent thinkers, but I'm not sure just how easily accessible it is. I get there easily if I paste the following into my address bar, but my PC knows where it is already because it's in my history. So, over to you.

https://nautil.us/issue/97/wonder/if-al ... pockethits

I rather like the authors' superb albeit brief summary of the possibility that we are alone: "The emergence of intelligence may require such a rare chain of events and happenstance contingencies—like winning a lottery—that it has not occurred anywhere else", alas brief enough to be dismissed from their discussion; however I think it is that 'rare chain of happenstance contingencies' which needs to be much more carefully examined and weighted before we get above ourselves. Is it not just that we WANT to believe in aliens, at whatever level of imagination suits us individually, that is the issue?

We shouldn't consider being the first or only smart beings because.............it's more fun to consider other options, such as vastly more advanced beings who can teach us so much. But, it is possible that they might just want to eat us or experiment upon us too. After all some in the SETI universe are very reluctant to advertise our presence for that sort of reason.

Shouldn't we consider WHY we might be alone if the relevant sciences have now progressed sufficiently to enable us to examine other planetary systems and such relevant matters?

It's not just the main item above that is interesting but also some of the many and varied responses of the usual sort and spectrum. As usual the condescending views of those who claim to be witnesses to alien visitation but are curiously reluctant to be precise about their evidence - instead putting the onus on the rest of us to find out about it for ourselves - is very irritating, but then it's meant to be. Not generous at all with their extensive proof are they? Suspicious to say the least, no? One very fortunate contributor claims to have been lectured by Drake and Sagan at Cornell, a pity that he doesn't expound more on that.

A more logical discussion about the possible nature and capabilities of more advanced alien civilisations is to be found in 'The Contact Paradox' by Keith Cooper, who is also editor of the UK monthly 'Astronomy Now' magazine. Another of the many books on related topics that is appearing, but reasonably balanced. He discusses such manifestations of enormously advanced civilisations as Dyson spheres and Kardashev civilisation types I to III in more detail, and clearly he would like there to be aliens too.

Iit is difficult not to see the whole field of how advanced alien civilisations could be and in what ways, and how they could be aware of us but hiding at the same time, as an exercise in intellectual/ mathematical oneupmanship, but being about unimagineably more advanced knowledge that is perhaps understandable if not forgiveable. Will Brian Cox ever get around to trying to explain it to the rest of the human race sometime, perhaps?

Regards

Geoff

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