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Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

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Did Jesus die on the cross or did he survive?

Jesus died on the cross.
1
20%
Jesus survived his ordeal on the cross.
2
40%
Jesus was never crucified.
0
No votes
Jesus never existed.
1
20%
Not sure.
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5

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John-B
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Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by John-B »

There's no evidence either way whether Jesus died on the cross or was taken down while unconscious and survived, it's all a question of belief.
Most Christians were taught the four gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John which all state that Jesus died on the cross, but how many of you read the gospel of Peter which implies that he survived? (Read the extract below):
[1] ... but of the Jews none washed his hands, neither Herod nor one of his judges. And since they did not desire to wash, Pilate stood up.
[2] And then Herod the king orders the Lord to be taken away, having said to them, "What I ordered you to do, do."
[3] But Joseph, the friend of Pilate and of the Lord, had been standing there; and knowing they were about to crucify him, he came before Pilate and requested the body of the Lord for burial.
[4] And Pilate, having sent to Herod, requested his body.
[5] And Herod said: "Brother Pilate, even if no one had requested him, we would have buried him, since indeed Sabbath is dawning. For in the Law it has been written: The sun is not to set on one put to death." And he gave him over to the people before the first day of their feast of the Unleavened Bread.
[6] But having taken the Lord, running, they were pushing him and saying, "Let us drag along the Son of God now that we have power over him."
[7] And they clothed him with purple and sat him on a chair of judgment, saying: "Judge justly, King of Israel."
[8] And a certain one of them, having brought a thorny crown, put it on the head of the Lord.
[9] And others who were standing there were spitting in his face, and others slapped his cheeks. Others were jabbing him with a reed; and some scourged him, saying, "With such honor let us honor the Son of God."
[10] And they brought two wrongdoers and crucified the Lord in the middle of them. But he was silent as having no pain.
[11] And when they had set the cross upright, they inscribed that THIS IS THE KING OF ISRAEL.
[12] And having put his garments before him, they divided them up and threw as a gamble for them.
[13] But a certain one of those wrongdoers reviled them, saying: "We have been made suffer thus because of the wrong that we have done; but this one, having become Savior of men, what injustice had he done to you?"
[14] And having become irritated at him, they ordered that there be no leg-breaking, so that he might die tormented.
[15] But is was midday, and darkness held fast all Judea; and they were distressed and anxious lest the sun had set, since he was still living. [For] it is written for them: Let not the sun set on one put to death.
[16] And someone of them said: "Give him to drink gall with vinegary wine." And having made a mixture, they gave to drink.
[17] And they fulfilled all things and completed the sins on their own head.
[18] But many went around with lamps, thinking that it was night, and they fell.
[19] And the Lord screamed out, saying: "My power, O power, you have forsaken me." And having said this, he was taken up.
[20] And at the same hour the veil of the Jerusalem sanctuary was torn into two.
[21] And they drew out the nails from the hands of the Lord and placed him on the earth; and all the earth was shaken, and a great fear came about.
[22] Then the sun shone, and it was found to be the ninth hour.
[23] And the Jews rejoiced and gave his body to Joseph that he might bury it, since he was one who had seen the many good things he did.
[24] And having taken the Lord, he washed and tied him with a linen cloth and brought him into his own sepulcher, called the Garden of Joseph.
[25] Then the Jews and the elders and the priests, having come to know how much wrong they had done themselves, began to beat themselves and say: "Woe to our sins. The judgment has approached and the end of Jerusalem."
[26] But I with the companions was sorrowful; and having been wounded in spirit, we were in hiding, for we were sought after by them as wrongdoers and as wishing to set fire to the sanctuary.
[27] In addition to all these things we were fasting; and we were sitting mourning and weeping night and day until the Sabbath.
[28] But the scribes and Pharisees and elders, having gathered together with one another, having heard that all the people were murmuring and beating their breasts, saying that "If at his death these very great signs happened, behold how just he was,"
[29] feared (especially the elders) and came before Pilate, begging him and saying,
[30] "Give over soldiers to us in order that we may safeguard his burial place for three days, lest, having come, his disciples steal him, and the people accept that he is risen from the death, and they do us wrong."
[31] But Pilate gave over to them Petronius the centurion with soldiers to safeguard the sepulcher. And with these the elders and scribes came to the burial place.
[32] And having rolled a large stone, all who were there, together with the centurion and the soldiers, placed it against the door of the burial place.
[33] And they marked it with seven wax seals; and having pitched a tent there, they safeguarded it.
[34] But early when the Sabbath was dawning, a crowd came from Jerusalem and the surrounding area in order that they might see the sealed tomb.
[35] But in the night in which the Lord's day dawned, when the soldiers were safeguarding it two by two in every watch, there was a loud voice in heaven;
[36] and they saw that the heavens were opened and that two males who had much radiance had come down from there and come near the sepulcher.
[37] But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered.
[38] And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding).
[39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from the sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them,
[40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.
[41] And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, 'Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?'
[42] And an obeisance was heard from the cross, 'Yes.'
[43]And so those people were seeking a common perspective to go off and make these things clear to Pilate;
[44] and while they were still considering it through, there appear again the opened heavens and a certain man having come down and entered into the burial place.
[45] Having seen these things, those around the centurion hastened at night before Pilate (having left the sepulcher which they were safeguarding) and described all the things that they indeed had seen, agonizing greatly and saying: 'Truly he was God's Son.'
[46] In answer Pilate said: 'I am clean of the blood of the Son of God, but it was to you that this seemed [the thing to do].'
[47] Then all, having come forward, were begging and exhorting him to command the centurion and the soldiers to say to no one what they had seen.
[48] 'For,' they said, 'it is better for us to owe the debt of the greatest sin in the sight of God than to fall into the hands of the Jewish people and be stoned.'
[49] And so Pilate ordered the centurion and the soldiers to say nothing.
[50] Now at the dawn of the Lord's Day Mary Magdalene, a female disciple of the Lord (who, afraid because of the Jews since they were inflamed with anger, had not done at the tomb of the Lord what women were accustomed to do for the dead beloved by them),
[51] having taken with her women friends, came to the tomb where he had been placed.
[52] And they were afraid lest the Jews should see them and were saying, 'If indeed on that day on which he was crucified we could not weep and beat ourselves, yet now at his tomb we may do these things.
[53] But who will roll away for us even the stone placed against the door of the tomb in order that, having entered, we may sit beside him and do the expected things?
[54] For the stone was large, and we were afraid lest anyone see us. And if we are unable, let is throw against the door what we bring in memory of him; let us weep and beat ourselves until we come to our homes.'
[55] And having gone off, they found the sepulcher opened. And having come forward, they bent down there and saw there a certain young man seated in the middle of the sepulcher, comely and clothed with a splendid robe, who said to them:
[56] 'Why have you come? Whom do you seek? Not that one who was crucified? He is risen and gone away. But if you do not believe, bend down and see the place where he lay, because he is not here. For he is risen and gone away to there whence he was sent.'
[57] Then the women fled frightened.
[58] Now it was the final day of the Unleavened Bread; and many went out returning to their home since the feast was over.
[59] But we twelve [perhaps Judas hadn't yet committed suicide or does it mean eleven plus Mary Magdalene?] disciples of the Lord were weeping and sorrowful; and each one, sorrowful because of what had come to pass, departed to his home.
[60] But I, Simon Peter, and my brother Andrew, having taken our nets, went off to the sea. And there was with us Levi of Alphaeus whom the Lord ...
-------------
This is a comment on the above gospel:-
The above text is part of the Gospel of Peter c. AD 150 which states that Jesus was alive when taken from the tomb in about AD 30-33. He did not have nails in his feet and was therefore able to walk out of the tomb, aided by two men. "head of the two reaching unto heaven" means tall and Jesus "going beyond the heavens" means taller than the two men. He recovered to meet Mary Magdalene and his disciples several times including "Doubting Thomas" and then disappeared. (The Ascension in the four main gospels is either not described or a bit vague and Peter's account is missing).

The Gospel of Peter was excluded in Bishop Athanasius' list in AD 367 and Pope Damasus I, the Bishop of Rome in AD 382, promulgated a list of books which contained a New Testament canon identical to that of Athanasius. The gospel is included in the Ethiopian Christian Bible together with many others excluded by the Pope.

There is a plausible sequence of events that supports the Gospel of Peter and satisfies sceptics of the four main New Testament gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is based on historical accounts of Roman law and practice and the diaries of the first-century Romano-Jewish historian Titus Flavius Josephus AD 37 - c. 100 who was born in Jerusalem and whose writings seem to be written earlier than the four main gospels and may therefore be more accurate. He mentions John the Baptist and Jesus although authenticity of parts of his references are debated.

Joseph of Arimathea is reported as a relative of Mary the mother of Jesus and to have taken responsibility for Jesus' body. He was a rich man with his own tomb available and he would have been well known to Pilate. He may have suggested to Pilate that Jesus wasn't a criminal but just a loud-mouthed preacher and if Pilate would take Jesus down from the cross before he was dead, Joseph would see that Jesus went into exile which would satisfy the Romans and the Jewish high priests. Other factors about the crucifixion are unusual. The crowd was kept well away from the cross and only friends and relatives were near. Jesus did not have nails through his feet according to Peter's gospel and Jesus was only on the cross for a shorter time than usual and removed before the two criminals. The centurion's stab in the side may have just been a surface wound and not a fatal stab. It seems that Pilate ordered his soldiers to do as little as possible to satisfy Herod and the high priests but to remove Jesus from the cross as soon as he was unconscious which was determined by a prick in his side. The fact that Pilate ordered his soldiers to say nothing about Jesus being helped out of the tomb implies that he knew something! The men who removed Jesus from the tomb were probably servants of Joseph and Jesus was hidden while recovering.

There were many different ways that Romans crucified men: 2, 3 or 4 nails, one nail through both feet from the front, one nail through each foot from the front, one nail through both heel bones from the side, one nail through each heel bone from each side of the cross, nails through each palm from the front, one nail through the back of each hand after folding the arms over the back of the crossbar, cords to support the man in various ways, a block under the feet and many other ways.
Men nailed through the front of their palms would fall forward and put pressure on the lungs causing them to suffocate quickly while folding arms over the back of the crossbar and nailing the back of the hands would delay death. Archaeologists have found a hand bone that shows nail entry from the back and also a heel bone showing one nail through the side. Breaking legs would also speed death as a man would be unable to support his body and not breaking legs would prolong agony which was what Romans wanted. If Jesus had no nails through his feet and was taken down early, the soldiers must have known which method would keep him alive for a fairly long time but not so long as to kill him. John's gospel says that he showed his disciples his hands and side but no mention is made of his feet. The Turin Shroud shows a man with foot injuries so it probably isn't Jesus.

Pilate is reported to have had an estate in southern France where there was a small Jewish colony to which Jesus would go with Pilate's permission and authorisation. Joseph would have provided the travel finance.

Many churches in southern France like Rennes-le-Chateau are dedicated to Mary Magdalene and stories state that she died there, so perhaps she left Jerusalem with Jesus either dead or alive. If she or they left shortly after Jesus had recovered and shown his wounds to Mary Magdalene and his disciples, they would have avoided the Jewish insurrection in AD 67 which caused the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and steal treasures. Other stories tell of Joseph of Arimathea also going to France and on to southern Britain where he planted a thorn bush at Glastonbury (I've used modern place names).

Shortly after Jesus disappeared there was no Christian religion as the disciples had all gone back to their previous lifestyles, but Paul (Saul of Tarsus), a Jewish Roman citizen who did not know Jesus and was not one of the twelve disciples, was converted on the road to Damascus and started the Christian religion after about AD 34-37. It seems that Paul was blinded by a light and did not actually see Jesus, he just heard a voice.

Christians in the western world believe that Jesus ascended bodily to heaven and the gospel of Peter doesn't contradict that as Jesus' death isn't mentioned, but it makes it more likely that he died a normal death either in Jerusalem or in exile and only his spirit ascended to heaven.

---------------

Apologies to those who hold to another faith and also to those who are passionate Christians but the practical, factual and historical aspects are worth considering.
There are other theories, like angels, aliens and UFOs (none of which are mentioned in Peter's gospel) but don't let's go down that road! :D

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by Brian-H »

I thought I'd Passover on this, but then I remembered that Pontias had a friend in Rome ?

Anyway, there are at least 2 problems with the Bible
1. The languages spoken in Galilee and Judea during the first century include the Semitic Aramaic and Hebrew languages as well as Greek, with Aramaic being the predominant language. Most scholars agree that during the early part of the first century Aramaic was the mother tongue of virtually all natives of Galilee and Judea. Most scholars support the theory that Jesus spoke in Aramaic and that he may have also spoken in Hebrew and Greek. Stanley E. Porter concluded: "The linguistic environment of Roman Palestine during the first century was much more complex, and allows for the possibility that Jesus himself may well have spoken Greek on occasion" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_ ... s_of_Jesus .
2. After Constantine adopted Christianity in 312 AD, the centre of Christianity became Constantinople (renamed Istanbul in 1930) but there were numerous purges of texts in the libraries, culminating in the total sack of Constantinople in 1204 by Crusaders, so that Rome became the centre of Roman Catholicism. Thus as well as the texts that are included in the English New Testament, there were many other texts that had either disappeared, or were ignored, or even wrong translations of translations by William Tyndale when he wrote the King James I version in 1525.

So what one finds in the Bible is what one was meant to find, not what actually occurred i.e. it's mythology and propaganda all 'tailored' to fit the "Jesus died for our sins" narrative (I think that that's the general narrative ?). The point is that Jesus, and all the people around him at the time, were Jews. They were not Christians as Christianity didn't exist, they were basically annoyed with certain sects and disputes going on in Judaism at the time - very much like Politics in Western democracies right now. The New Testament is a potted portrait that, IMO, probably bears little resemblance to what one would find if one went back in a time-machine to observe it all.

Note that Islamic versions on the death of Jesus seem to vary (IIRC Christ is the 2nd Prophet and Muhammad is the 3rd and final prophet) e.g. mainstream Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified but was bodily raised up to heaven by God (so his crucifixion is a Christian construct), while other Muslims reject this belief and instead contend that Jesus survived the crucifixion (fell unconscious or "swooned" and was later revived in the tomb in the same mortal body), and he then continued to preach in India until his natural death.

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by John-B »

55 views and only 3 votes, so many people with no views at all, even "not sure". Stick your neck out - you can change your vote later if you want.

It's true that all gospels were written as propaganda. Josephus' account should be reasonably unbiased but even he would have had a wary eye on the authorities in Rome and all stories need to be translated correctly and not have further propaganda inserted. We just have to try to assess what events are likely to be factual, from as many sources as possible, and string them together in a plausible sequence.

It's strange that Mary Magdalene didn't know that Jesus' body had been removed from the tomb. She treated his wounds and would have known that he was alive but what happened seems to have been purely a family affair, even though Mary Magdalene was a disciple, friend and possibly even his wife. No doubt the family wanted as much secrecy as possible as Herod and the high priests would be looking for the body.

There was a TV programme recently that showed a newly discovered tomb which was very small inside and had a two-foot square entrance just underground. People are described as looking into Joseph's tomb and sitting on something inside so it must have been a top-of-the-range tomb. It probably still exists and I'm surprised a suitable one hasn't been identified.

I haven't seen any logical explanation for the words "cross following them" out of the tomb.

I have heard the story about Jesus going to India but if he went alone and Mary Magdalene went to France, that seems strange. Perhaps his relationship to Mary wasn't as close as people think. I'm not aware of any stories of Jesus going to France so going to India is more likely, but there's not sufficient information to consider it even likely. Jesus could have died of his wounds in Jerusalem.

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by Sydsmith »

John, It is clear from the amount of research you have put into this and the tone of your questions, you have doubts, you are feeling insecure, unsure and seek reassurance. Assuming of course your post is your own work not plagiarised.

From the amount of research and quotes in your work, I guess you are an avid reader, if you have not yet done so in the course of your research, why don't you read the ESV version of the Bible from front to back, it may not convince you, but it is a good read and I am sure it will help in your indecision.

With regard to the lack of responses, those of us who know, don't need to respond. Except of course I have done so. Syd

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by John-B »

Sydsmith wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:41 am John. Assuming of course your post is your own work not plagiarised. Syd
My first post is almost entirely plagiarised but seems to fit the main events reported by various gospels better than the conclusions reached by them, if one takes a logical approach.
Jesus' teachings were sensible and helpful, but reports of his death and what happened afterwards seem weird in the four main gospels.
I don't feel insecure, I just try to think logically and I don't feel drawn to any religion except possibly Buddhism. I believe that something we call God created the universe, but that didn't involve anything like rising from the dead or ascending to heaven. The gospels, written in the late first or middle second century were no doubt a means to give encouragement to Jews who had just suffered a showdown with a brutal Roman occupation.

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by Brian-H »

John-B wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:24 am 55 views and only 3 votes, so many people with no views at all, even "not sure". Stick your neck out - you can change your vote later if you want.
Well I voted "Not sure", you voted "Jesus survived his ordeal on the cross" (that was the first and only vote), and God voted "Jesus never existed" LOL
John-B wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:24 am It's strange that Mary Magdalene didn't know that Jesus' body had been removed from the tomb. She treated his wounds and would have known that he was alive but what happened seems to have been purely a family affair, even though Mary Magdalene was a disciple, friend and possibly even his wife. No doubt the family wanted as much secrecy as possible as Herod and the high priests would be looking for the body.
The thing to bear in mind with all of these stories is that, whatever did take place, they were all Jews - AFAIK, other than the Roman occupiers, pagan beliefs (polytheistic) were not in vogue in that area at that time.

The early followers were known as Gnostics, who were basically a sect of Judaism and, if you like, were more like the Lutheran Protestants 1500 years later, in that they didn't feel or want Priests to intervene in their personal relationship with God. In other words, if one follows the split between Catholicism and Protestantism (particularly Oliver Cromwell's later annoyance with R.C.) then one will see what Jesus was on about. "Christianity" is a later "invention" and Jews (and AFAIK Gnostics too) do not recognise the R.C. stories. In other words, as with Protestantism being a branch of "Christianity", Gnosticism was a branch of Judaism - they were all Jews, if you take it all in the context of Judaism, there's nothing outstanding in any of it.
John-B wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:24 am I have heard the story about Jesus going to India but if he went alone and Mary Magdalene went to France, that seems strange. Perhaps his relationship to Mary wasn't as close as people think. I'm not aware of any stories of Jesus going to France so going to India is more likely, but there's not sufficient information to consider it even likely. Jesus could have died of his wounds in Jerusalem.
These stories of early followers going to France or England have to be taken with an extremely large pinch of salt. These were claims made in order to try to shift the focus to that country - money from pilgrims - yes please.

John-B wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:01 am Jesus' teachings were sensible and helpful, but reports of his death and what happened afterwards seem weird in the four main gospels.
AFAIK there is no evidence of the original scripts written by MMLJ or P, as most of the original scripts were either lost or perished in Constantinople. So what you read in the "Gospels" should be taken as mere mythology.
John-B wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:01 am The gospels, written in the late first or middle second century were no doubt a means to give encouragement to Jews who had just suffered a showdown with a brutal Roman occupation.
Just as R.C. in England didn't need any other texts to help them during the Reformation, the Jews were doing ok on their own with the Torah. The Gospels were a few of many texts (most have disappeared) written to support the early Gnostic branch. Christianity came a couple of hundred years later, hijacked it all, and arguably added or radically embellished quite a lot of it.

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by Brian-H »

As an idea, let's take Marxism as an analogy.

From wikipdeia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
Marxism is a method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict as well as a dialectical perspective to view social transformation. It originates from the works of 19th-century German philosophers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. As Marxism has developed over time into various branches and schools of thought, there is currently no single definitive Marxist theory.

Some Marxist schools of thought place greater emphasis on certain aspects of classical Marxism while rejecting or modifying other aspects. Some schools have sought to combine Marxian concepts and non-Marxian concepts which has then led to contradictory conclusions. It has been argued that there is a movement toward the recognition of historical and dialectical materialism as the fundamental conceptions of all Marxist schools of thought. This view is rejected by some post-Marxists such as Ernesto Laclau and Chantal Mouffe, who claim that history is not only determined by the mode of production, but also by consciousness and will.

Marxism has had a profound impact on global academia, having influenced many fields, including anthropology, archaeology, art theory, criminology, cultural studies, economics, education, ethics, film theory, geography, historiography, literary criticism, media studies, philosophy, political science, psychology, science studies, sociology, urban planning and theatre.


So even where we have someone who died 140 years ago and wrote texts directly himself, we have divergence.

When you consider that Jesus did not write anything himself, that the MMLJ gospels were not written by MMLJ themselves, and that many other 'scriptures' written by many people have been lost, it's not surprising that we can easily end up with something like, well (as a crude analogy) Communism.

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by A.N.Other »

Did he drive a Daimler?
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross, or survive?

Post by Brian-H »

Big Col wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:08 pm Did he drive a Daimler?
He did have one car, but didn't want to upset anyone so he didn't speak about it much
jesus_accord.jpg

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