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Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Technical issues not related to a DLOC car marque, eg tyres, ethanol, other car makes, etc. and legal, political and insurance
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Vortex O'Plinth
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Re: Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Post by Vortex O'Plinth »

John-B wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:20 am
Chris_R wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 am Both battery powered and hydrogen powered vehicles are electrically driven with electric motors.
I thought that conversions used the petrol engine which can run on hydrogen with a few changes, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Hydrogen as a vehicle fuel can be used in two different ways. As you say John, a petrol fuelled engine can be converted to run on Hydrogen, however the low energy density means a very inefficient use of the fuel and you still get NOx emissions from the exhaust as well as water vapour.

The second way is to use a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity to drive an electric motor used to power the car. Hydrogen fuel cells are much more efficient than internal combustion engines and produce a very much cleaner exhaust.
Nick

"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".

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John-B
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Re: Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Post by John-B »

Vortex O'Plinth wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:08 am
John-B wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:20 am
Chris_R wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:53 am Both battery powered and hydrogen powered vehicles are electrically driven with electric motors.
I thought that conversions used the petrol engine which can run on hydrogen with a few changes, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Hydrogen as a vehicle fuel can be used in two different ways. As you say John, a petrol fuelled engine can be converted to run on Hydrogen, however the low energy density means a very inefficient use of the fuel and you still get NOx emissions from the exhaust as well as water vapour.

The second way is to use a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity to drive an electric motor used to power the car. Hydrogen fuel cells are much more efficient than internal combustion engines and produce a very much cleaner exhaust.
I agree, but if you have an old car that you want to keep, conversion is a way to go which would be much cheaper than ripping out the petrol engine. I suppose a few enthusiasts might do it, but not in my classic car!.

Chris_R
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Re: Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Post by Chris_R »

Yes, you are right John for conversions. I was referring to future technology and comparing it to battery technology which is what is being so widely promoted today despite the possible shortcomings.
Lack of petrol is not going to affect us for the foreseeable future anyway. I heard a discussion on this topic on the radio and the view was that the tipping point between battery powered cars and petrol or diesel powered will probably come sometime in the late 2020s when sales of battery powered cars begin to equal or overtake others. By then as well we will know much more about how this change will affect our electricity supplies and whether we have enough. We will also have real experience of how the second hand car market will react to older electric cars and to newer petrol and diesel cars.
I expect that petrol and diesel will continue to be available well into the 2040s albeit on a decreasing number of outlets but if the current Government's rhetoric as regards its use by 2050 comes about there will be huge pressure to stop its distribution and sale.
I think that a different solution may be found for historic cars of the twentieth century and I suspect that may revolve around ethanol or methanol. With only slight modifications the petrol powered internal combustion engine can run on pure ethanol (I don't know about diesel versions). It's carbon neutral, in the relatively small quantities that would be required to fuel the country's historic car fleet it won't have a huge impact on land use, it's portable, it's easily transportable, you can fill your tank much like today. Likewise for methanol. It is already manufactured today for use in race cars, perhaps that will expand to fill the void left by petrol. It is also carbon neutral.

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Vortex O'Plinth
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Re: Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Post by Vortex O'Plinth »

A relatively short term move away from fossil fuels (eg oil) to forms of sustainable energy will give the large energy producers such as Exxon and BP a huge problem. A large proportion of their current oil reserves may end up never being extracted and burnt. It's estimated that these "stranded assets" could be worth £700 billion. This would be a heavy commercial 'knock' for any industry. Whatever the future of transport, the production of electricity or Hydrogen will require a lot of energy and this is unlikely to be wholly provided by renewable sources for a long time - much longer than the 2035 deadline for electric only vehicles.

The oil companies will obviously want to continue to exploit their assets and these will almost certainly be needed to provide the energy for electricity directly or in the form of hydrogen cells. The global warming target of a limit of 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels seems increasingly unrealistic without a major technological and commercial shift.
Nick

"Don't bother with the Air & Space Museum - there's nothing to see.......".

Simon Hyslop
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Re: Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Post by Simon Hyslop »

I think we need to remember that there is also the need for petrol and diesel for all the powered devices which are used. Pressure washers, chainsaws, chippers, JCBs, post borers, water pumps, tractors, combines, ride on mowers, cement mixers, log splitters, compressors.
I appreciate the list will conjure up the electric versions used at home but there's a lot of serious kit which is needed to do proper work hour after hour either because of the weight of the work involved or being remote from an electricity source. Also, probably every hospital has a back up generator as do many other businesses and these are run and tested regularly. A place I sometimes work at runs their diesel generator every Friday so fuel for all these uses is probably going to be needed unless someone develops extremely durable batteries and motors well beyond the current offerings.

Big Col
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Re: Sale of new Petrol & Diesel only cars to be banned from 2035

Post by Big Col »

The end results, if there ever will be an end result, will have to be a balance between manufacturing having to sell there products (be it fuel or the vehicles that run on it ), the restrictions of freedom for the users (it may restrict poorer people buying newer cars) and the taxation requirements to keep the revenue coming in for government.
Colin,
I may be slow but I’m rough as well !

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