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Consort - family owned from new

Car histories: owners, dates, etc. restorations, events visited, holidays, stories about the car, etc. plus statistics like numbers and models produced.
Brian-H
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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Brian-H »

Sydsmith wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:49 am Brian we are way off subject here but as that seems to have been allowed here is my two penny worth.

I had a similar problem with a 1937 Austin 18 York which I rebuilt the wood was rotten in places all round but only at the places where water had penetrated and where the dreaded woodworm had made a meal of it.

My approach was to strip out the body of everything, remove the doors and boot lid and headlining then replace the rotten wood sections bit by bit.

I carefully removed rotten parts and made copies from what was left of them guessing the missing bits over size and trimming them down as regularly I tried them in place. It was very time consuming and I have to admit where the timber was difficult to remove fairly sound but worm eaten, I treated the wood and used a thin mix of epoxy resin worked into the holes and left to harden, layered up to provide a solid finish.

The body will not fall apart as long as you do not take out too much at a time.

Of course the right way to do it is to strip the roof off and rebuild as needed, I have seen that done on a coach built Bentley but it is a major task, not for the feint hearted. It is possible to remove the shaped metal roof top without distorting it and to put it back on, but it needs great care skill and time

I cannot see how you could repair a roof structure without removing the head lining, it is fixed to the roof structure in most cars so it has to come out, in my experience that means a new headlining as it is very difficult if not impossible to remove it without damaging it. Hope that helps. Syd
Syd that's not way off topic at all. Extremely useful to know.

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Salmons »

If I had the car I would prefer to restore it to as near original condition as possible with a restored Daimler engine. Then you will have the pleasure of using your grandfathers car which will be worth more than a 2020s Electric Special.

Referring back to how the roof was shaped. The wooden bodywork was constructed by a Coachbuilder, a trade which had lasted from very early times, then patterns were made for the roof and other body parts and the new parts were stamped out in a Press.

Salmons

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Brian-H »

Superfly wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:11 pm Hi Brian

Just a heads-up with the Consort project.

You might want to check out the cost of the bureaucracy involved with the DVLA before you convert the Daimler to electric,as it will come under the 'radically altered vehicles’, catagory.
You will have to factor in the cost of this which is considerable,a lot of form filling, potential inspections and you could also end up with 'Q' plate.

Although,not quite the same situation,I have personal experience trying to register a 'radically altered vehicle' with the DVLA in 2019,it took the best part of 4 months and my instance it was a fairly straightforward case

Unfortunately the day's have gone here in the UK where you can 'radically alter' even Classics without having to deal with the relevant Government bodies.

Thanks,be safe
Stu
That's something I looked into, finding varying opinions on the internet, mainly dictated by the country.

To summarise what I found, some countries e.g. Nordic are very bureaucratic to the extent you say, then at the other extreme are some states in the USA where bureaucrats don't discourage any mods to cars, some encouraging EV conversion. In the UK, there were a couple of reliable EV conversion sites that say that, as long as the HP is not far off the original HP, then DVSA/DVLA just accept a change from petrol to electric (similar as if it was petrol to diesel with same HP) .

But if I were to put, say, a 200 HP electric motor in the car then DVSA would want to examine the car (and it woulds be crazy to put such a powerful propulsion unit of any description into a Consort without strengthening the body, changing the transmission, uprating the suspension and brakes).

Brian-H
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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Brian-H »

Salmons wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:21 pm If I had the car I would prefer to restore it to as near original condition as possible with a restored Daimler engine. Then you will have the pleasure of using your grandfathers car which will be worth more than a 2020s Electric Special.
Based on it having no propulsion unit at the moment, plus the issues with the roof, I'm in 2 minds as to whether I just scrap the car and buy myself a Nissan Leaf (or even a Tesla) , or, use the car as a basis for a DIY EV car and use that daily instead.

In 2011 I bought myself a new electric bike for near enough £1k (back then). After a few months I was disappointed. Then I looked into making my own. To cut a long story short, 5 years ago I got a 2nd-hand kit for £240 (half price) including uprated controller and large battery pack. I bought a 2nd-hand road bike (aka hybrid) on Gumtree for £60 as "donor" (I already have a mountain bike but at the time I didn't want to use that as donor). For a mere £300 that electric bike was and still is fantastic - even though it has 18 gears, it's always in top gear as it can pull away at traffic lights faster than you can change up through the gears.

Going back to the car, about 15 years ago I was tempted to put a diesel engine in the Consort because I wanted to use it regularly without contributing too much to CO2 and also to keep fuel costs down. But now I seriously dislike all internal combustion engines - with modern controllers, electric motors are far superior in every respect. In the way that you look at an electric car, you can separate the motor + controller from the energy storage system i.e, if you build one yourself, you can use battery packs (and there's a huge range to choose from) and then, if they ever come down in price, fit H2 fuel cells instead. In that respect, a large car is a better donor than e.g. a BMC Mini.

As to value, I suspect that it would be better to use a large 60s RWD car as donor (I like the idea of a Humber Hawk for example) which would then sell at a profit. OK, a Consort is not the best donor for an EV car, but, I have it, it cost me nothing when I got it, and other than the issues with the roof, it'll cost little to use daily with an EV conversion.

Salmons wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:21 pm Referring back to how the roof was shaped. The wooden bodywork was constructed by a Coachbuilder, a trade which had lasted from very early times, then patterns were made for the roof and other body parts and the new parts were stamped out in a Press.

Salmons
This is also valuable information. I suppose the question is, in what order was the roof assembled e.g. did they put the wood into the steel roof then weld the roof to front and rear, or weld the steel roof in place, fit the wood into the car, then shape the roof a bit more by hand

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by grahamemmett »

Brian, I think you need to ask yourself the question “is this the right car to do this amount of work on?”
I understand the base vehicle cost you nothing but all I can see is you spending a great deal of time and probably money to repair the fabric of the car before even starting on the EV conversion.
At the end is the day you’ll end up with a car that steers, stops and rides like the 1930s design that it is but with the amount of Go far exceeding its capacity to cope. Plus you’ve got the arm wrestling with the DVLA and it will have to remain in your family forever as it will be unsaleable.
If you’re intent on an EV project - and I think it’s a great idea, how about something you can get all the repair panels for and is built completely from steel, a Moggie Minor saloon perhaps?
Graham Emmett ¦ DLOC Chairman ¦ chair@dloc.co.uk ¦ 07967 109160
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DB18 1949 LCV522 (Yes that one with the P100s)

Brian-H
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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Brian-H »

Thanks Graham, you're so right in a couple of ways, but so wrong in others :D

Firstly, let's look at "but with the amount of Go far exceeding its capacity to cope".
The graphs in the first page of this thread compare - Consort with original engine, Consort with the chosen a.c. motor, and a Honda Accord with a modern 2.4 N/A iVTEC engine. The reason why I included the latter was to verify that the spreadsheet I have created is correct (because the final acceleration curve of the Accord is close to reality). Note that the mass of the Accord and Consort are a close match and I also gave them both the same pessimistic coefficient of rolling resistance of 0.02, but, I gave the Accord a drag coefficient of 0.35 and the Consort 0.6 (Consort might be worse than that).
Anyway, I've modified the graphs in the spreadsheet to exclude the Honda Accord, so that it is now possible to see the close match of the Consort original engine with the chosen a.c. motor.

Torque
Image

Power
Image

Acceleration curves in each gear in m/s/s (In comparison, the acceleration due to gravity = 9.8 m/s/s)
If you look at the curves, the electric car can be left in 3rd gear almost all the time, basically because an electric motor's torque is there right down to zero rpm. Indeed, it might be possible (desirable even) to dispense with the clutch anyway.
CDA = Consort with Daimler engine
CEM = Consort with Electric Motor
Image

Acceleration curves in time changing up through the gears.
CDA = Consort with Daimler engine
CEM = Consort with Electric Motor
Image

Whether the acceleration curves are close to reality is not important, what is important is that, relative to the original Consort engine, the "Go" of the chosen a.c. motor does not "exceed [the car's] capacity to cope".

Secondly, "arm wrestling with the DVLA". Although I am not a member of any EV conversion forum, I have read many threads in many EV forums over the last year. These two links are worth reading
1. this one , coincidentally, from almost exactly a year ago https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... ostcount=2
2. same forum, with a useful post comparing each country, last edited August 2017 https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... php?t=8841

There are several other EV forums that say the same thing, which is, do not confuse IVA or ECE R100 with an engine change, which is what an electric motor is.

Provided the electric motor's power is same or less than the original ICE's power, then it is simply an engine swap notifiable to DVLA. Now I do accept that the power curve of the chosen a.c. motor is slightly higher, but this is due to the longer flatness of the torque curve, which can be modified in the controller by bringing the knee point further back. There are several a.c motors available from the same manufacturer in the USA, but I wanted one with same (slightly lower) torque output so as not to damage the gearbox or diff or driveshafts. If I choose one with even lower torque then I'd have to keep on starting off in 1st gear, rather than leaving it in 3rd all the time - and it would also be slower than the car with original IC engine in A1 condition.

Thirdly, the car is unsaleable as it is, because the original engine was scrapped by me in the 80's (because my grandfather left the car in a garage in the bad winters of the 50's/60's without any antifreeze), and, the replacement engine I got from Exchange and Mart in the 80's wasn't in good condition at the time and it certainly requires total overhaul now. Also, nobody would buy it with the roof expanded along the gutters.

Where you are very very right is “is this the right car to do this amount of work on?” . Probably not, but if I don't, it's going to be scrapped (because it's unsaleable as it is).

In terms of a different car with all repair panels available and built completely from steel, the problem with a Morris Minor is that the range would be severely limited. A large car is a better idea, because the larger the car, the more battery packs you can get in it, so it has a bigger range. A Series II Humber Hawk appeals, but not sure of availability of panels. Maybe a large Ford (yuk).

BUT - let's stand this on its head. I can't weld, but I could do work on wood in the way that Syd described earlier. The more I think about it, the more I just want to get to the wood in the roof to investigate. At the end of the day, it's not important that roof looks perfect enough to win an award at a show, all it has to do, is look reasonable and be more waterproof than it clearly was not in the mid-70's when I had it on the road.

To conclude, the mindset is that I dislike internal combustion engines, and I want an electric powered car, with a range greater than 100 miles, preferably as much as 200 miles. It would be far easier to go and buy a Nissan Leaf instead, far far easier. But other than the wood in this Consort, I've done the research and I think that a shiny 1952 Consort powered by an electric motor is feasible, and if it is, it gives a new lease of life to this car, and more driveable in modern traffic than with a rebuilt old engine.

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Norfolk Lad »

Brian a electric cycle has a legal top speed of 14 MPH.

If i had the good fortune to own my late Grand Fathers Car i would want it preserved , sadly nothing remains for me to look at or use.
Your Grand Fathers car could be restored by many on here so it could be used or seen by Gt Gt Grandchildren, but the car is yours so you have the final say hope he is not looking down on you.

But you are taking a chance the law might change to 48V MAXIMUM allowed for your conversion then it would be bye bye Consort.
Sell this rare car and allow Grand Fathers memory to remain.
I have no wish to eat my beans from his recycled Consort.
Peter

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Brian-H »

As a member of an electric bike forum (since 2012), I can say that the modified controller on my bike gives more torque from rest. I didn't say it was modified to provide torque over 14 mph. You can also get controllers that have the 14 mph limit for use on the road, which can be switched off when going off road.

If any changes to law regarding EV conversion of cars are introduced, then it wouldn't be a voltage ban, it would then include a safety check of the installation (which an MOT inspection would not be able to do, so it would be a check at a DVSA centre).

None of my 3 sons has any interest in the car, neither has anyone in the wider family. My mother (my grandfather who bought the car was her father) didn't like the car either. The only reason I like it is because it brings back memories of great times in it as a student e.g. I gave 10 friends a lift back to the hall of residence from having a curry. 6 in the back, 4 in the front with me. I was the only person who was sober, got stopped by a police van, they wanted to breathalyse one of the passengers instead because they couldn't see who was driving. I had my license on me and said "why would I let someone else drive it when I'm the only one who's sober and insured". It really was me driving it, and I really was sober. Fortunately another passenger who was in the army cadets (and became a captain in the regulars after graduating) intervened and told them to stop harassing and get on with breathalysing me. They didn't go ahead with a charge for overloading because by the time the coppers had stopped messing about, 6 of the passengers had run off, so they only had 5 names LOL . But these days, knowing these cars a lot better, I'm surprised that 11 people in it did not do any damage at all. Loads of other tales that I could relate, but that particular tale outlines the strength of the chassis on these cars.

Regarding my grandfather himself, he was a bit of a visionary and would have bought a Tesla these days. Also being practical, he would be looking down and say "stop wasting your time Brian, just scrap it, and buy a Nissan Leaf".

But I would be willing to sell it, as is, for a reasonable offer (front wings are off, head is off, sills, boot, rear wings, and chassis in very good condition)

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Chris_R »

I'd say if you have the inclination, the knowledge and skill to install an EV, go for it. Have a bit of fun, do something different and be individual. The only reason one has not been done before is the car is not "fashionable" and companies that do them pick more popular models. Supposedly everyone loves a Morris Minor (horrible things that were out of date and should have been updated before the end of the 1950s) so that's why someone has done one of those. Same for Minis.
Your car itself as it is now is not worth very much. There is quite a nice one of these currently for sale on classic car websites for just £15k. Some have suggested that someone might restore it, but that someone is someone else, not themselves, and I reckon those "someone else's" are very few and far between for this type of car. If you sell it, I suspect it will more likely end up on a banger circuit than anything else. There has also been a suggestion to convert a Morris Minor like as has been done before, well you'd have to buy the car in the first place and you may end up spending as much on having that restored as you would on this.
From the descriptions and discussions and also looking at those videos of Denis Leys I'd suggest that the steel part roof is not structural and removing a section of the roof timber while it is replaced will have little effect. It will simply stay in place while you work inside so I reckon (admittedly I'm guessing a bit here) you can remove the rotten timbers and splice in new.
Also has been mentioned is the DVLA. Presumably the car is already registered at the DVLA, if not get that done first so you're not trying to register it with the EV motor and as you say it will be not much different to any other engine change. You would need to change the fuel type from Petrol to Electric. With an EV substitution the car will indeed be radically altered and might not qualify for historic car tax but as a zero emission vehicle it will qualify for zero car tax!
I think that a shiny 1952 Consort powered by an electric motor will be something very different and attract a lot of interest.

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Re: Consort - family owned from new

Post by Brian-H »

Chris_R wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:45 pm I'd say if you have the inclination, the knowledge and skill to install an EV, go for it. Have a bit of fun, do something different and be individual. The only reason one has not been done before is the car is not "fashionable" and companies that do them pick more popular models. Supposedly everyone loves a Morris Minor (horrible things that were out of date and should have been updated before the end of the 1950s) so that's why someone has done one of those. Same for Minis.
Your car itself as it is now is not worth very much. There is quite a nice one of these currently for sale on classic car websites for just £15k. Some have suggested that someone might restore it, but that someone is someone else, not themselves, and I reckon those "someone else's" are very few and far between for this type of car. If you sell it, I suspect it will more likely end up on a banger circuit than anything else. There has also been a suggestion to convert a Morris Minor like as has been done before, well you'd have to buy the car in the first place and you may end up spending as much on having that restored as you would on this.
From the descriptions and discussions and also looking at those videos of Denis Leys I'd suggest that the steel part roof is not structural and removing a section of the roof timber while it is replaced will have little effect. It will simply stay in place while you work inside so I reckon (admittedly I'm guessing a bit here) you can remove the rotten timbers and splice in new.
Also has been mentioned is the DVLA. Presumably the car is already registered at the DVLA, if not get that done first so you're not trying to register it with the EV motor and as you say it will be not much different to any other engine change. You would need to change the fuel type from Petrol to Electric. With an EV substitution the car will indeed be radically altered and might not qualify for historic car tax but as a zero emission vehicle it will qualify for zero car tax!
I think that a shiny 1952 Consort powered by an electric motor will be something very different and attract a lot of interest.
This is a fabulous summary of what I think. I tend to be long-winded sometimes, you've said it in one post very well indeed.

Oh , and yes, I registered it with DVLA when the change was notified in the press (back in the 80's ? I think).

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