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1951 LD10 KKV 222

Descriptive and in-depth articles on how to do repairs or restoration. (Wilf's articles visible by forum members only).
Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Vulgalour wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:44 pm That sounds frighteningly like a pull-and-pray job, even if I hadn't messed up by partially disassembling the hub unit incorrectly. The thing is, when you try and move any of it, it feels like it's hitting a stop somewhere rather than it feels tight. There is play and then a definite thunk, or so it feels, as if I've missed a grub screw or similar somewhere.
What you may be feeling is the olive/seal on the long/lower tube coming up against the steering box. Whenever I did any of this (done it on each of the 3 Consorts) I had an assistant watch what was happening to the wires and tube at the far end while I pushed/pulled/levered the Control head Unit.

The first time I did this was on my grandfather's Consort ~35 years ago. I wanted to remove all the wood in the car to renovate it all, and knew that the easiest way to remove the dash was to remove the steering wheel first.
These concise instructions told me entirely how to do it (part of "steering column removal" on Consort)
steering_gear_3.jpg
Now the Lanchester may be different see this link on "steering column removal" http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/steering.htm where it says
1) To gain sufficient access, either remove front wing and radiator assembly, or remove O/S wing and horn.
2) Unscrew central retainer nut from bottom of steering box.
3) Drain oil from box before removing olive (under the central retainer nut).
4) Disconnect wiring through the central tube.
5) Pull horn and indicator assembly (with central tube attached) slowly into the cabin, preventing excess oil from soiling the interior.
6) For disassembly of the horn and indicator assembly click here
7) Draw off wheel (taper and key).

8) Loosen all screws/bolts securing the selector controls and disconnect support bracket from dash.
9) Remove split pin and nut on lower ball joint, then disconnect drag link (the fit is tapered so may need persuasion). Then remove single transverse bolt holding gear to frame and draw out to front.


We're only interested in 2) to 7) because those relate to the very concise Consort instructions. The notable difference is that the steering wheel is held onto the column differently. On the Consort, it's on splines, because the steering wheel can be adjusted forwards or backwards to suit leg and arm length. This means that, in the lifetime of the car, the short/upper tube is moved several times over the long/lower tube (note that the cable also runs in and out through the end of the long/lower tube).

So on the Consort, the tubes are expected to slide over one another. But, a very big but, they don't slide easily if you rely on the Control head unit alone i.e. the steering wheel has more mass and is bigger so it can be grabbed and moved more easily. I can assure you that, having done it ~35 years ago, and again a couple of years ago on the Consort I bought in 2018, and only yesterday on the one I bought in 2008 (as a check) :- you still have to lever the Control head Unit outwards when the steering wheel is at the end of its travel. It doesn't move easily, tends to be in fits and starts.

The only other way is to follow the LD10 instructions and somehow remove the olive from the long/lower tube, then pull the whole lot into the car. Note that when you've done that, you'll still have to pull the tubes apart anyway - and that does not get mentioned anywhere in the LD10 instructions :!:

Even more ambiguity can be found towards the end of this link http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/control.htm
I recommend cutting the bullet connectors off the wires, solder the wire or tie the fishing line left in the steering column, to the new wires and slowly pull the new wiring harness through the stator tube and out the end of the steering box.
The fit of the harness in the tube is tight so it might be best to tape the wire ends together as they are pulled through.
The short stator tube fits down and into the longer stator tube in the column.
The tubes go together in only one orientation, directed by the dimples found on the side of the short tube.


i.e. either the long/lower tube has been put back in without any mention of doing so, or, it was never removed and he used fishing wire on the wires as the short/upper tube was pulled out (leaving the long/lower tube behind).

In your shoes I'd print out both links
http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/steering.htm
http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/control.htm
then thoroughly read and re-read them, track the ambiguities, and then choose whether to remove the olive and pull the entire tube and split afterwards, or do as on the Consort and split the tubes while pulling.

Final thought - "The tubes go together in only one orientation, directed by the dimples found on the side of the short tube." - yes this is so on the Consort, but if some previous bodge artist has incorrectly put the long/lower tube in, and then forced the short/upper tube in such that the dimples don't align, well it's tight as a duck's ..... as I found out on the bodged unit on the 2018 Consort, but it did come out.

EDIT - later today I'll remove the steering column on the Consort here http://forum.dloc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=37716#p37716 and then pull the Control head Unit out from the top(again), and pull the long/lower tube out from the bottom, and take pics of the tubes and how they fit together. It won't take long as the car's up on ramps and front bodywork already removed as a unit - easy access etc etc - only difficulty might be pulling the swing arm off the steering box as I've only got a 3-leg puller (arm has to come off to get steering column out)

Simon Hyslop

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Simon Hyslop »

Depending on how tight the securing nut under the olive was done up, the olive can cut a groove in the stator tube which makes it difficult to move the tube once the nut has been removed. Some of the olives supplied by the spares section for another make are split - they have a diagonal cut - so they close together when tight and open up again when slackened so you can get them off more easily. If there is any of the stator tube poking out, is it dead straight, it hasn't had a knock and got a bit of bend in it? Any kink makes these more difficult to remove. It's the same design on a lot of cars of the period, some are easier if they have rack and pinion steering because there isn't the oil to keep in as well as the tube to hold still.

On this model, without the adjustable column feature, it should only be the olive or a bent tube that can be keeping the unit in place. If you can rule out the latter and can get to the olive, I'd suggest trying to carefully file the olive off, i.e. file one side until it splits, and hopefully that would free it. The olives are just a standard size, I'd need to look but 5/16" comes to mind. A new olive is an easier find than a new stator tube because your type would need a new tube welded onto the round plate under the control head or one found second hand in good condition, try a GS1 Austin 10 as a more plentiful source possibly but maybe someone has a source of LD10 ones??. If you can avoid that but removing your one carefully it will be worth the extra time and effort.

Not relevant to the LD10 but maybe of interest for the adjustable column type, the usual source of failure is in the lower tube where it meets the upper one. There is a slot the upper tube's serrations slide in and that slot in the originals is just that, a slot. New ones have a hole drilled first at the end of where the slot will be and then the slot cut to stop the slot cracking as sideways forces are applied to it. The tube needs to be in something like stainless steel, brake piping or the like is useless as it just bends as the force applied as the wheel is turned is quite a lot greater than first imagined. The olive holding the tube at the bottom is acting as a pivot point for the tube which, at several feet long, is then turning into quite a long lever so the force at the joint or at the control head is much more than might be first thought, hence the reason why the olive is done up so tight - unfortunately.

There is an "if all else fails" option, fortunately. Seal the hole in the bottom of the steering column, fit a separate horn and indicator switch. Drive car. It shouldn't come to that but if time or availability of parts becomes a problem, it can always be returned to !

Vulgalour
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Location: Kent

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

The stuck olive theory seems the most sound here. When the end plate is unbolted and the end nut undone, the olive and plate stay quite firmly together and it seems they should come loose fairly easily allowing us to see the stator tube and deal with it. I can actually move the control unit back and forth without any sensation of binding, which makes me think it's not that the tubes are misaligned or binding but rather something is jamming it, like an olive that has cut a groove in the column perhaps.

We shall put some theory into practice as soon as we're able to and report back.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Vulgalour wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:22 am I can actually move the control unit back and forth without any sensation of binding,
Sounds to me, when you removed the plate from the end of the steering box, you've pulled the lower tube down a tad (from the top tube) so now there's a bit of slack. Just get someone to see what is happening at the far end when you move the top end and also swap over so you can also see i.e. you've lengthened the combined length of the two tubes (which isn't a problem).
Vulgalour wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:22 am which makes me think it's not that the tubes are misaligned or binding
Well the top tube should just pull out then, so pull harder
Vulgalour wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:22 am rather something is jamming it, like an olive that has cut a groove in the column perhaps.
Nope, the column is hollow, the opening in the plate at the steering box is too narrow for an olive to get inside. The column is hollow, has two hollow tubes running up inside it, the cable runs up the inner two tubes - those inner two tubes overlap about 1 foot down from the steering wheel. Either the olive is stuck on the bottom end of the lower inner tube, or the top inner tube won't pull from the bottom inner tube, or both. There's nothing else - two inner tubes, and an olive at the far end.

Either try to remove the olive, or pull harder at the top end, or pull the plate at the bottom end to pull the lower tube down further (because you've already pulled it a tad without realising, which isn't a problem, just pull more)
Brian-H wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:38 am EDIT - later today I'll remove the steering column on the Consort here http://forum.dloc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=37716#p37716 and then pull the Control head Unit out from the top(again), and pull the long/lower tube out from the bottom, and take pics of the tubes and how they fit together. It won't take long as the car's up on ramps and front bodywork already removed as a unit - easy access etc etc - only difficulty might be pulling the swing arm off the steering box as I've only got a 3-leg puller (arm has to come off to get steering column out)
Nope, need a two-leg puller, 3-leg won't do it, so I'm going to order a 2-leg puller as I'll need one for other jobs. While there are other ways to get it off, or to leave it on and pull off the track rod, it's too hot today and there's no rush for me - I'm mainly going to do it because, from the C pillar forwards, the steering column is the only thing I've never removed from a Consort.

There's also more than enough info already about the tubes, so some photos of tubes won't add much.

Simon Hyslop

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Simon Hyslop »

Without wishing to impinge on the wisdom of our friends on here, there is only one tube. It is only cars with adjustable steering columns that have two tubes. The parts list isn't terribly helpful but it does show just the one tube with no top hat connector in the middle.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

^ have a read through this link http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/control.htm go to the end where, under the last photo (which shows a short tube on the Control head Unit) you'll see the sentence "The short stator tube fits down and into the longer stator tube in the column. The tubes go together in only one orientation, directed by the dimples found on the side of the short tube."

It's that photo and sentences which give me the reason for saying there are two tubes on the LD10, otherwise I'd have not said it's very similar to the Consort. But if you're right and there is only one tube on Vulgalour's LD10 then the olive HAS to come off

Also, just another thought, when one tightens compression fitting on house plumbing, the olive is often very difficult to remove. The olive on this is doing a similar job, although of course there's hardly any pressure. I've found the olives on the Luvax chassis lubrication system (~4mm) similarly compressed and very difficult to remove, although again, hardly any pressure in the system (compared with house plumbing)

Simon Hyslop

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Simon Hyslop »

Thank you for the link to that description, I can see what you mean. Once this particular dissection has taken place, we'll find out what lies inside this car and then I'll either admit (and grovel) that this is possibly the one model of car which has an adjustable column arrangement where it doesn't need it or, if it does have one tube, suggest what I think has happened with the write up. It's almost as exciting as an episode of Dick Barton.....

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

No need to grovel if you're wrong Simon, as it is a very very good thing to beware of, even if wrong.
If you're right (and I reckon odds-on that you are), I'm going to be rather peeved that I put too much faith in an indicated similarity :oops:

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

We shall all learn together once I get under the car and have a fresh jiggle of things. That was possibly going to be today's job but I decided I wanted to wait a little longer to see if more info came to light and I actually couldn't be doing with getting gear oil on me again. I really dislike the smell of gear oil, the smell of it it just seems to get into everything.

Instead, turned my attention to the other wiring in the cabin. Semaphores, interior light, and brake lights now all removed. Bits of string hanging out of the headlining for routing the new wiring easier, and much learned about how things go together. It is possible to remove the wiring without removing the headlining, it's just also quite difficult. Am hoping I can get enough tension on the headlining fabric to re-tack it once the new wiring is in, there's not a lot to work with but the fabric isn't actually as brittle as feared.

The only bits of wiring to remove now is the run along the chassis, the tail going to the fuel sender, the brake light spur that runs across the bottom of the boot shelf (screws that hold the wire clips are properly stuck), and a few odds and ends under the dashboard that are still attached to the instruments. Feel like we've done the very worst of it now at any rate. Oh, and the stator tube wiring needs to be done too, ignored that one for today since I wanted to do something that was a slightly easier win.

The wiring doesn't come up the B pillar as expected, it actually runs along the chassis, up into the boot, back into the car via the driver's side C pillar, and then over the rear driver's door and across the middle of the roof above the headlining.

A rewarding, if slightly crispy, day's work at any rate and I feel a bit more confident about the bulk of the rewiring job. Recorded what I could of it and I plan to make a plan to show the physical route of the wiring in the car to hopefully help other owners that are doing any sort of wiring work and/or problem hunting. Someone had definitely been chasing the wiring before us because some of the headlining above the B pillars was missing tacks, other areas had newer bigger tacks put in, and one semaphore is newer than the other. This lends credence to the working theory that failing wiring is the main reason the car was taken off the road because wherever we've been unpicking the wires, we've found evidence of work on them as well as age related failed sections.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Not sure if it's any use, but steering column out of my "2008" Consort and long 'stator' tube can be viewed here viewtopic.php?p=37851#p37851

I could be wrong but don't think the long 'stator' tube can be withdrawn in either direction in a Consort without the steering column being removed. On the LD10, check the length of the steering column, then see if that length would hit the roof of the LD10 from the steering wheel and at the angle of the steering column - if it would hit the roof, then the LD10 arrangement of tube(s) is more likely to be same as Consort


EDIT 29-07-21 - good news, on a Consort I just tried to pull the 'stator' tube through the steering column into the car, and there is just enough room for it to pull out into the interior, with a slight bend, before it would catch in the headlining. The reason it's called a 'stator' is because that tube is used to lock the control head unit from either rotating and/or pulling outwards i.e. the control head unit gets secured by the 'stator' being secured at the lower end.

So when refitting, the control head unit is pushed down and rotated into position, then locked by securing the tube at the lower end (making sure that the seal is also in position). On the Consort the tube is in 2 parts to facilitate adjustment of the steering wheel by the driver, so on the LD10, as there is no adjustment facility for the driver, it is probably one long tube fixed to the control head unit.

The Consort doesn't use an olive at the lower end, it uses a tight clamp, but you can knock the tube through the clamp with a drift of the same diameter as the tube - so this would also work to push the tube through the olive on the LD10.

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