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1951 LD10 KKV 222

Descriptive and in-depth articles on how to do repairs or restoration. (Wilf's articles visible by forum members only).
tpickering
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:32 pm
Location: Stratham Western Australia

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by tpickering »

Hello

I have just spent a really enjoyable afternoon reading all your posts and watching the videos of your wonderful reatoration of this car.
What a joy to see it "returned from the brink" and you and your partner should be very proud of what you have acheived.

Thanks for taking an enormous amout of your time to document your progress and I am sure that it will be "devoured" by many who are working to keep their cars on the road.

You are an inspiration to us all.

many thanks

Trevor
1950 DB18 SS

Vulgalour
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 pm
Location: Kent

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

Thank you for such a wonderful comment! There will be more updates as we complete jobs, not as frequent as we'd like at the moment, but we'll do our best to keep the content coming for readers and owners just like you.

Vulgalour
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 pm
Location: Kent

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

Image

Starter finally removed from the Lanchester. Plan is to open it up and clean the insides, the current theory being that the contacts are dirty or corroded. The starter isn't mechanically sticky, it's more that it's electrically unreliable. Given the inoperable state of other electrical bits and pieces being mainly down to corrosion, and working fine once cleaned, we're hopeful this will respond positively too.

We also learned you don't have to disconnect the exhaust to get the starter off, it's much easier to disconnect the brake rod instead. We're hoping it's trouble-free enough that we can get this stripped down, rebuilt, and refitted to the car in time for the next car video slot on the 6th of July. No promises though, we don't know what we'll find inside it yet.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Vulgalour wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:17 pm .... we can get this stripped down, rebuilt, and refitted ....
Depending on what one means by "stripped down" - whilst it's feasible to disassemble these to some large extent and then put them back together with a fair chance of it all working afterwards, it's usually not advisable and it's better to leave assembled and just examine the brushes and commutator by removing the cover band at the back.

Here are the instructions from the DB18 Consort owners handbook.

Every 12,000 miles

Remove the starter cover band in order to examine the brushes and commutator.

Check that the brushes move freely in their holders by holding back the brush springs and gently pulling the flexible connectors. If the movement is sluggish, remove the brush from its holder and clean its sides with a petrol moistened cloth.

The commutator should be clean and dirt-free and should have a polished appearance. If it is dirty, clean it by pressing a soft dry cloth against it while the started is turned by hand. The square shaft extension at the commutator end can be used to rotate the starter. If the commutator is very dirty, the cloth should be moistened with petrol. (See Fig. 51)

Replace brushes in their original positions in order to retain the correct ‘’bedding.’’ If the brushes are worn so that they do not bear properly on the commutator, they must be replaced by a Lucas Agent or Service Depot, and correctly ‘’ bedded ‘’ to the commutator.


The last sentence is somewhat precautionary as it is possible to purchase new brushes and fit them oneself and bed them in off-load. But the gist is that, unless one is competent, don't strip these down any further than removal of the cover band at the back. As well as cleaning the commutator, I've sometimes sprayed brush ends with switch cleaner - if the brushes are still long enough, this can help in giving new life to the brushes.

Simon Hyslop

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Simon Hyslop »

If the problem is intermittent electrical connectivity the problem with these units is, I have found, not in the starter itself but in the pull operated solenoid. They can be picked up for reasonable money now and then but they aren't the most robust pieces of design and you may find that one sector or the contact discs have been making contact rather than the whole disc as is the case with an electric solenoid. Cleaning the contacts may work and as Brian has accurately described, that means being able to leave the main works of the starter intact. Although I have a great dislike of deviations from original specifications, I have often thought that the substitution of an electrically operated solenoid and an appropriate switch would be an improvement on what seems to be a bit of design more fitting to an Austin 7 rather than a fairly expensive car.
Last edited by Simon Hyslop on Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brian-H
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Location: UK

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

^ I hadn't noticed that there's a solenoid fixed to the back of the starter (on the Consort the solenoid is not fixed to the starter motor, is bigger and tends to be reliable). So yes it's more likely to be the solenoid, which hopefully comes off and comes apart fairly easily.

If it's not possible to reliably fix that solenoid, you may be in trouble as, looking closely at that solenoid, is it cable or foot operated ?

EDIT 1
If it is cable/foot operated and not possible to repair then if it was my own car, I would remove it and run a heavy cable from starter to an an electrically operated solenoid and fit a push-button on the dash.

EDIT 2
I see that Simon's edit and my own addition of my last paragraph have overlapped - great minds think alike :)

Vulgalour
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 pm
Location: Kent

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

This one operates via a pull knob on the dashboard rather than a foot pedal or button. A few people have mentioned the same as Simon about the contacts, and the advice about the solenoid actually makes a lot of sense, the symptoms are very similar to a failing starter solenoid on a 70s car so it could well be that's the issue. Knowing that a full dismantling is likely not required is good too, we'd expected we might have to pull everything out of the case but it sounds like we only have to remove a couple of inspection areas to deal with the potential issues. We've done no specific research yet, not had the time since removing it, so we're going on past experience of post-1970 starter motors and related tech which seems less user friendly and servicable than this unit.

Visual inspection at least highlighted no concerns and when the starter operates there are no unpleasant noises, grinding, or other mechanical maladies. The only issue it presents is rather like a failing starter solenoid on a 70s car which we hadn't thought about until Simon mentioned the solenoid issue.

We'll take the light approach first with some inspection and cleaning and see if that resolves the issue. If it does, then that's great. If it doesn't then we'll dig a bit deeper. At least we now know how to remove the starter if needed so the next go at that shouldn't be as difficult as it was today.

As always, thank you for the advice, it will help point us in the right direction. Our priorities at the moment are starter motor, wiring loom, and radiator. Once we've got those items checked off the rest should be a little easier... we hope.

Vulgalour
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 pm
Location: Kent

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

A quick update here since I had a few moments after work to see how stuck the screws were holding the plates onto the starter. Answer was, about as stuck as they should be. They came undone as though nobody had ever done them before and the lack of damage to the screw head slots suggest that perhaps it hasn't been apart before. There are no photos at the moment, better to do that in daylight this weekend. What I've learned is that there's barely any shiny surface on the contact points for the solenoid so that's probably the first issue. The brushes appear to be quite stuck, so that's probably the second issue. The whole casing is full of what seems to be a mixture of carbon/graphite and rust powder so that's likely the third issue. The commutator, however, is very shiny and while it would likely benefit from a clean, it doesn't appear particularly worn. There was some wear to the screw head slot for the inspection band, and a little to the square nut, so I suspect it has at least been inspected in its lifetime, but not recently.

It's the same story as the other electrical items we've cleaned up in that surfaces are corroded from lack of use, so hopefully it will respond similarly positively once cleaned. Given that the bearings feel nice and smooth, I can't see any need to dismantle the starter further than removing the maintenance covers, as suggested, so that makes this a much easier job. Everything seems nice and clunky, plenty of material to work with. Once we get the brushes to move freely we'll be able to see what the wear on those is like and whether or not they need replacing. Initial inspection suggests there's plenty of meat left on them and it's just that they're a bit stuck that's causing the issue.

Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

It's possible that someone has already replaced the brushes. If you can get them out, do so, but be very very careful to ensure that you put them back exactly as they were i.e. each brush in its correct slot and in the same orientation as it came out.

If you don't have any, buy Servisol switch cleaner (usually Super 10) and use that to clean them and then put them back dried out. You can also clean the slots with e.g. cotton buds soaked in switch cleaner but again wait for it to dry out before reassembly. You can also try a vacuum cleaner with its smallest attachment to get excess particles out.

In the Consort owner's booklet they say to use petrol to clean the commutator but these days IPA is better and Servisol do an IPA, or just the same switch cleaner will do.

You can also use switch cleaner to clean the contact points in the solenoid (well it's not really a solenoid but we'll stick to that semantic).

Note that WD40 is said to be a switch cleaner but I've never used it for that because it tends to be a bit greasy, Servisol do the proper stuff.

Vulgalour
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:04 pm
Location: Kent

Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

When you operate the starter, you pull the knob which pulls the lever and allows a disc to contact two plates, completing the circuit. Release the knob and the spring on the lever pulls it back and breaks the contact. So I suppose it's more of a contact breaker switch than a solenoid? I can see how it works, I just don't know the accurate terminology. I don't use WD40 lubricant on electrical components because it doesn't really work, so no fears there, all it seems to achieve is collecting and holding onto dirt that then fouls the contacts. I have actually been using WD40 electrical contact cleaner, which is different to the lubricant, and have found it does a pretty good job. One of those things where it was picked up in an emergency situation and discovered it was a reasonable product in its own right.

Would the contacts in the solenoid/switch benefit from some dielectric grease, or is it best to leave them dry once the corrosion is cleaned off?

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