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1951 LD10 KKV 222

Descriptive and in-depth articles on how to do repairs or restoration. (Wilf's articles visible by forum members only).
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watkindj
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by watkindj »

You are correct about the b post for the semaphores and the light
Darren
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Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

It's strange that in all 3 Consorts in my possession the wiring is ok - maybe a much better quality ?

I can't think why, on the Consort, the wiring for the semaphores runs from the back and up each side through the ribs, there's pros and cons to each arrangement. Possibly less stress on the loom by running it to the back without branching at the B pillar and also removes chafing by running through wooden ribs in the roof.

In my experience, once one knows how to remove the front bodywork as one unit, it really is easy to lift off and put back (though it does require 2 people to lift off and lift on). The screws are only there to stop it all falling off when you go over bumps and round corners - if the car's not moving fast it just sits there after being lifted back on. Obviously the tilt-forward bonnet/wings arrangement on some cars is a more convenient idea, but the advent of unibody construction made working in the engine compartment more like wallpapering the hallway through the letter box :lol:

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

Brian-H: to be fair, your Consorts have generally had an easier life than our poor little Lanchester, beaten every day of its life, forced to go up mill eight days a week... (said in heavy Yorkshire accent).

Got the wiring we've so far removed all laid out. This gives you some idea of what we're dealing with. The black bits are the original wiring, all the colourful bits are what's been put in. I'll be making another diagram to understand this a bit easier, looking at it, the wiring diagram, and the new harness I can't really make this match up with what it's supposed to do yet. Some of the confusing bits make sense where new wire has been spliced in, but not all of it. Everything is labelled at least, and having it out of the car will make it easier to decypher. The wiring for the generator and starter motor are still in the engine bay, they weren't part of the loom and instead were two newer wires that were connected separately so it was easier to leave those in the car for now and we can remove them when the new harness goes in. Same for the wiring that goes up the column, that had been split at the steering box so it was easier to disconnect the bullet connectors, label it, and leave it in place for now. What's really confusing matters is the wiring from the voltage regulator to the white connector block that was attached to the bulkhead, that seems to have muddled up some of the connections so while everything did work (bar the brake lights on the pedal and the interior light) it doesn't seem to have been wired as per the original to achieve that.

Image

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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Vulgalour wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:12 pm Brian-H: to be fair, your Consorts have generally had an easier life than our poor little Lanchester, beaten every day of its life, forced to go up mill eight days a week... (said in heavy Yorkshire accent).
The one I bought in 2008 (full of filler with crumbling wood), looks like it had been parked in a brown paper bag in a septic tank, and driven 29 hours a day round t'mill - you try and tell the young people today that cars could do that ... and they won't believe ya'

Bullet connectors on the wiring at the exit from the steering box are standard so that the steering column can be removed, or so that the trafficator/horn bakelite unit can be withdrawn for whatever reason.

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

See now you're just showing off, typical Daimler owner. I mean really, brown paper bags AND septic tanks? Luxury. ;)

Bought some new string today so next chance we have, Pat and I can wheel the Lanchester out and deal with the next bit of wiring removal which will probably be the horn push and semaphore section. Hoping that the weather is nice this weekend (it wasn't last weekend) so we can just spend a lazy Sunday busily unpicking the old wiring from the car. The bullet connectors at the end of the column are going to make keeping the string on a lot easier which is nice.

For the number plate light we notice the boot lid lining is actually screwed in place, presumably to a wooden frame for the panel, like the doors? Hopefully the screws won't give us to much trouble, they're very tiny. It does mean we can deal with the big hole that's been punctured into the panel before we got the car, looks like someone put something sharp in the boot and closed the lid on it.

There's quite a bit of cleaning to be done before the new loom goes in too, plenty of grease and barn dust all over everything. Is there any recommended way of keeping cloth-wrapped wires clean? Some sections do have a rubbery-plastic sheath which seems to coincide with the most exposed areas, but not all. As much as we're embracing the cosmetic wear and tear of the car we don't actually want it to be dirty, particularly with any new bits that go on.

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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by watkindj »

Vulgalour wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:40 pm probably be the horn push and semaphore section.
Don’t forget that the horn push and semaphore switch is connected to the stator tube which is fixed at the bottom of the steering column
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

Vulgalour wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:40 pm See now you're just showing off, typical Daimler owner. I mean really, brown paper bags AND septic tanks? Luxury. ;)
Well in order to pay for the fuel consumption of their bigger and more powerful engines, Daimler owners have to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night (half an hour before going to bed), drink a cup of sulphuric acid, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work :(
Vulgalour wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:40 pm .... deal with the next bit of wiring removal which will probably be the horn push and semaphore section.
You might want to bear in mind the removal and disassembly instructions for the Control head Unit on Graham Tootell's website http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/control.htm

Being Lucas it's similar to the Consort - be careful with the turn signal lever when undoing the nuts that hold the wire tabs, the bakelite on the centre of the lever is brittle so if the lever comes out unexpectedly something may break, and/or there are small parts that can fly out without you seeing them, it's then a very very fiddly job getting it all back together and it won't work if a small spring or wheel is missing :!:

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

Yep, I for some reason couldn't find that section when I was trying to remove that part the first time, and gave myself more work to do than I needed to. Something to address after the wiring is done. Speaking of...

Bit of pre-work tinkering and I've come unstuck, unlike the job I'm trying to complete. Should have been a simple one this, just removing the stator tube wiring. Should be a case of undoing the nut that the wiring goes through at the end of steering box, removing the olive behind, and draining the oil.

Both the user manual and the online directions don't give any idea of how you drain the oil. There was no obvious drain plug. The olive was fixed very firmly in place and, since it seems to be brass, not something I wanted to apply any amount of force to in case I damaged it. After much deliberation, it was decided the best course of action was to undo the four bolts holding the end plate onto the steering box. This then released the SAE 140 oil messily as it started coming out of the top right bolt hole first and then all around the sealing edge.

Allowed to drain, and expected the olive and wiring to now be free and easy to remove, or at least have enough play to slide the end plate down to see/remove any sort of retaining device. No such luck. You can get a few millimetres of play but there's a very obvious something physically stopping much movement in any direction, like there's some sort of retaining grub screw I've missed somewhere. Again, rather than force anything I've left the oil to drain and will reassemble just so we can get the car back in the garage. Without the end plate bolted on the steering wheel can't really do anything and we can't exactly leave the car sat stuck half in half out of the garage overnight.

For illustrative purposes, some photographs. If anyone can see what I might have missed here, or know what else I should do, please let me know. It's going to be something obvious, I just can't see it.

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Brian-H
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Brian-H »

On the Consort there are 2 grub screws in the steering wheel 180 degrees apart. They are 'hidden' in the bakelite behind the main boss/hub of the wheel - 2 small holes into which a small screwdriver will fit to unscrew the grub screws. Once those are removed (on the Consort) then the whole Control head Unit can be slowly levered/pulled out leaving the steering wheel behind, also pulling the cable up with it.

But looking at the instruction on the LD10 website http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/control.htm
I don't think there are any grub screws, because it says "4) Pull horn and indicator assembly (with central tube attached) slowly into the cabin"

Also, without going into details, the pictures on the website show that the unit is slightly different at the back
http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/c ... spring.gif
particularly this one
http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/c ... abmove.gif
the metal parts above the bakelite sections are different on the Consort, but the point is, the bakelite sections and the way it operates are identical


[note - the reason I know all this is because the Consort I bought in 2018 didn't latch the trafficator stalk so I removed it using the first two sentences in these Consort instructions
steering_gear_3.jpg
when I'd got it out and took it apart I could see some bodger had missed out a tiny wheel - fortunately I had a spare Control head Unit that I've had for decades, which had the stalk broken at its bakelite section (not by me I hasten to add), so I took that apart and made one good Control head Unit out of the two]

Anyway, what you've done is partially disassembled the Control head Unit from the front :!:
Image

If you're lucky, you might be able to still "4) Pull horn and indicator assembly (with central tube attached) slowly into the cabin" - by getting something like 2 tyre levers (or maybe 2 screwdrivers) 180 degrees apart and slowly lever the remains of the Control head Unit out of the steering wheel.

If you look at this picture you'll see what should come out
http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/c ... embled.gif
that shortish tube goes stiffly over the main 'stator' long tube and is almost what's called an "interference fit". When refitting, put grease round the inner of the tube in the picture, so that it slides more easily over the main long tube.

If you look at the first two sentences of the Consort instructions, the long tube is left in place and you pull the wires through it leaving it in place - hence no need to drain the steering box on the Consort - and I'd hazard a guess that that technique would work on the LD10 as well.

i.e. I never understood the reason for
"1) Unscrew central retainer nut from bottom of steering box.
2) Drain oil from box before removing olive (under the central retainer nut)."
but having read through the entire link several times now http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/controls/control.htm and looked more closely at the pictures therein, plus your pictures too, I don't think that the tubes and steering box are any different than on the Consort. The only difference on the Consort is that the steering wheel can be adjusted forwards and backwards, hence the Control head Unit has some other gismos behind the bakelite section, and the grubscrews to hold it in place when the steering wheel's position is being adjusted - this luxury meant that the Consort fitted into its paper bag more easily :lol:

PS - when levering/pulling the remains of the Control head Unit out of the steering wheel, have an assistant watch the wiring moving into the end of the long tube where it exits from the steering box.

PPS - that brass olive effectively acts as the oil seal, and I've no idea whether it's removable from the end of the long tube or not, as I've never moved the long tube on a Consort. I'd guess that undoing the clamp/retainer nut and then moving the long tube further out from the steering box is the way to drain the oil, then push the tube back to seal it (and lock in place with the clamp/retainer nut). Basically, those first 2 instructions on the LD10 link are one way to do it, the other is to do it the way it's described in those first two sentences in the Consort steering wheel removal.

PPPS - here is a Consort with front bodywork removed as one unit - http://forum.dloc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=37716#p37716 so much easier to get to everything

Vulgalour
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Re: 1951 LD10 KKV 222

Post by Vulgalour »

That sounds frighteningly like a pull-and-pray job, even if I hadn't messed up by partially disassembling the hub unit incorrectly. The thing is, when you try and move any of it, it feels like it's hitting a stop somewhere rather than it feels tight. There is play and then a definite thunk, or so it feels, as if I've missed a grub screw or similar somewhere.

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