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UFOs & Aliens

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Do aliens and UFOs exist? (Two choices which you can change.)

Aliens do exist (over 70% sure). (UFOs are manned and are not just robotic drones.)
3
18%
Aliens don't exist.
4
24%
I'm not sure about aliens.
1
6%
UFOs are alien-made (over 90% sure).
4
24%
UFOs are man-made.
3
18%
I'm not sure about UFOs.
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by John-B »

I think Brian enjoys debunking any suggestion of UFOs or aliens, and as I've said before, I'm not convinced myself but I find the stories very thought--provoking.

I've become more interested in the period before the advent of writing, 5000 to 10000 years BC. Yesterday's TV was about the ancient city with pyramids and temples in Teotihuacan, Mexico.
Certain aspects of its design seem to be impossible for early humans to do or know without the wheel or telescopes, like:
1. The arrangement of the main pyramids is the same as the three stars in Orion's belt. This also occurs in the Giza pyramids and other places in different continents.
2. The main avenue of the city points at the constellation of Pleiades, as do other places on different continents.
3. A tunnel has been found leading to the centre of the main pyramid, as found under the Sphinx and Giza pyramid.
4. The tunnel and caverns are lined with mica, which is a heat insulator and electric conductor used in micro-electronics.
5. Balls 1" to 5" diameter with clay cores and gold-coloured metallic covering have been found in the tunnel and caverns.
6. The end of the tunnel under the centre of the pyramid has a pool of mercury. It must be several gallons and mercury isn't found naturally in nature and it's a superconductor at very low temperatures. An ore has to be heated to a high temperature. Mercury is also found in a Chinese pyramid in a scale model of the complex in the moat, again it must be several gallons.
7. The layout of the pyramids and temples is a scaled down model of our solar system with accurate distances between temples, including a diverted canal along the position of the asteroid belt and including a temple on a mountain top which must represent a planet beyond Pluto. This planet has recently been proposed based on gravitational movements of Pluto but hasn't been found yet.

All the above seem to be beyond the capabilities of early human civilization, hence the suggestion of aliens. How is it that similar structures are found all over Earth? It could be that humans were travelling all over the Earth at these times, but did they have the required celestial knowledge?

The suggestion is that pyramids were creating some sort of electrical energy, either for communication across the Earth or to power UFOs. The power we can detect in pyramids is minute, but perhaps there is a form of energy we haven't detected yet.

Pyramids in several places have been found to be several pyramids laid one on another like Russian dolls. Teotihuacan has five layers. Perhaps the increases in mass increase the energy created. I think the aliens, if they exist, must have been incredibly patient while humans laboriously and slowly built all these monuments.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

LOL yes I do enjoy debunking this stuff, but at the same time I don't want to kill off an interesting thread.

tbh I don't see any reason why humans, sufficiently organised and skilled, could not build any of the above. I think I said before, in a previous post several weeks ago, that the Crusaders built huge castles all over the Middle East ~800 years ago, yet nobody questions that ability. Taking a more recent example, the skills to build ~3,000 wooden De Havilland Mosquito aircraft have gone. That's the way organised human skills come and go.

As for that stuff about pyramids having special powers, I remember ~40 years ago (long before the internet and with limited TV in the UK), there was a rumour going round that razor blades could be re-sharpened by placing them inside a pyramid shape. I think Myth Busters de-bunked that one ~15 years ago.

The way that energy works, is that you cannot create energy from nothing. Take radio antennas as an example. Amongst many types of antenna, a Yagi antenna (the sort that we use for TV reception) gives "gain". The "gain" of an antenna is the same whether it's being used to receive or transmit. To keep the numbers simple, let's take an antenna with 10 dBi "gain", and if you put say 10 Watts of power into the antenna, then you calculate what's called the EiRP by adding the dB numbers.
10 Watts = 40 dBm
Antenna "gain" = 10 dBi
EiRP out of the antenna is thus 50 dBm
50 dBm = 100 Watts !!

So a passive device has changed 10 Watts to 100 Watts ...... or has it ? (rhetorical question, it hasn't, an engineer has to understand the way things work before mis-interpreting it, but amateurs are renowned for using numbers to get the wrong interpretation)

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

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If you ignore all the suggestions that pyramids were some sort of energy generator, what about the knowledge to place pyramids and temples in positions corresponding to the distances of planets which humans couldn't know? Just coincidence? What would have been the purpose of pools of mercury and layers of mica? I think it is more likely that we were visited by aliens in the distant past than from the 1950s to the present day, but there's no proof yet.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Sydsmith »

At the risk of be accused of being pedantic, Mica is an insulator and dielectric not a conductor, or at least it was when I was working. :D

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by Brian-H »

A very very long read coming, here goes .....


John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am I've become more interested in the period before the advent of writing, 5000 to 10000 years BC. Yesterday's TV was about the ancient city with pyramids and temples in Teotihuacan, Mexico.
Bit of a problem with that, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan#History
The history of the city of Teotihuacan is distinguished by four consecutive periods, known as Teotihuacan I, II, III and IV.

Period I occurred between 200 - 1 BC and marks the genesis of a real city. During this period, Teotihuacan began to grow into a city as farmers working on the hillside of the Teotihuacan Valley began to move down into the valley, coalescing around the abundant springs of Teotihuacan.

Period II lasted between AD 1 to 350. During this period, the construction of some of the most well known sites of Teotihuacan, the Pyramids of the Sun and Moon, were completed. Further, the shift of political power from the Temple of the Feathered Serpent and its surrounding palace structure to the Street of the Dead Complex occurred in this period sometime between AD 250 and 350.

Period III lasted from the year AD 350 to 650 and is the so-called classical period of Teotihuacan, during which the city reached the apogee of its influence in Mesoamerica. This period saw a massive reconstruction of monuments; the Temple of the Feathered Serpent, which dates back to the previous period, was covered with a rich sculptural decoration. Typical artistic artifacts of this period were funeral masks, crafted mainly from green stone and covered with mosaics of turquoise, shell or obsidian. These masks were highly uniform in nature.

Period IV describes the time period between AD 650 and 750. It marks the end of Teotihuacan as a major power in Mesoamerica. The city's elite housing compounds, those clustered around the Street of the Dead, bear many burn marks and archaeologists hypothesize that the city experienced civil strife that hastened its decline. Factors that also lead to the decline of the city included disruptions in tributary relations, increased social stratification, and power struggles between the ruling and intermediary elites. Following this decline, Teotihuacan continued to be inhabited, though it never reached its previous levels of population.


So it wasn't until the times that Christianity came about in Europe, that those pyramids were built


John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am Certain aspects of its design seem to be impossible for early humans to do or know without the wheel or telescopes, like:
1. The arrangement of the main pyramids is the same as the three stars in Orion's belt. This also occurs in the Giza pyramids and other places in different continents.
This chestnut has been roasting since 1989, when Robert Bauval came up with his Orion Correlation Theory. He reckons that the site of the Giza Pyramid Complex dates back to 10,000 BC when, he claims, 3 mounds were built to align with 3 stars in the Orion Belt of stars (and the pyramids were built later). However, the alignment of Orion's Belt with North have been independently investigated by two astronomers Ed Krupp of Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles and Tony Fairall of the University of Cape Town and they concluded that, due to precession of the earth's axis, the supposed alignments are ~10 degrees out from the alignment in the era stated by Bauval.

Note also that
A. Bauval theorised that the Nile represented the main line of the Milky Way, while the Sphinx represented the Leo constellation. If so, then the Sphinx is built on the wrong side of the Nile.
B. Bauval's other theory about Atlantis was debunked in a 1999 BBC Documentary.
C. the era of Egyptian pyramid-building ended ~1500 BC, well before any other pyramids were built by other civilisations
D. there is no assertion anywhere about the pyramids in Mexico being aligned to any constellation
E. Orion is one of several constellations (or sets) of stars in the Milky Way at different distances and brightnesses that give a perception of a shape. The earliest known depiction linked to the constellation of Orion is a prehistoric mammoth ivory carving found in a cave in the Ach valley in West Germany in 1979. Archaeologists estimate that it is 32,000 to 38,000 years old. The distinctive pattern of Orion is recognized in numerous cultures around the world, and many myths are associated with it.
orion_stars.jpg
If, if, any culture wanted to build structures on earth to represent any constellation's shape, they didn't require telescopes or wheels. What we need to bear in mind is that humans not so far back had nothing to do in the evening or at night. No internet, no TV, no books, no news-papers, no writing paper, no windows, no electricity, no lights, nothing, zilch, nada. All they had was stories to tell one another about the dark, about the moon, about the stars, about clouds, about rain, and what the sun was when the sky was and wasn't dark. The further you go back, the more you'll find polytheistic (multi-god) cultures. They had ample time to come up with all sorts of creationist stories to explain life and the weather etc e.g. list of Aztec Gods. What they did have was the ability to move very large stones and build structures to worship their creators, so that the creators would help them with the weather.

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am 2. The main avenue of the city points at the constellation of Pleiades, as do other places on different continents.
The urban layout of Teotihuacan exhibits two slightly different orientations, which resulted from both astronomical and topographic criteria
The central part of the city, including the Avenue of the Dead, conforms to the orientation of the Sun Pyramid, while the southern part reproduces the orientation of the Ciudadela. The two constructions recorded sunrises and sunsets on particular dates, allowing the use of an observational calendar. The orientation of the Sun Pyramid was intended to record “the sunrises on February 11 and October 29 and sunsets on April 30 and August 13. The interval from February 11 and October 29, as well as from August 13 to April 30, is exactly 260 days”.

Or maybe it was a drag track to race their Subaru cars

But nowhere is there any mention of the Mesoamerican cultures aligning anything with any constellation - at least, not in any accepted scientific literature. And as I say, so what if they did.

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am 3. A tunnel has been found leading to the centre of the main pyramid, as found under the Sphinx and Giza pyramid.
OMG they could build tunnels too. Maybe aliens visited Cornwall before anywhere else becausemining in Cornwall and Devon began in the early Bronze Age, around 2150 BC.

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am 4. The tunnel and caverns are lined with mica, which is a heat insulator and electric conductor used in micro-electronics.
As said by Syd, mica is an electric insulator (hence mica capacitors).

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am 5. Balls 1" to 5" diameter with clay cores and gold-coloured metallic covering have been found in the tunnel and caverns.
Yikes, I'd surmise that they must have had skittles and pubs as well.
John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am 6. The end of the tunnel under the centre of the pyramid has a pool of mercury. It must be several gallons and mercury isn't found naturally in nature and it's a superconductor at very low temperatures. An ore has to be heated to a high temperature. Mercury is also found in a Chinese pyramid in a scale model of the complex in the moat, again it must be several gallons.
Cinnabar, the most common source of mercury in nature, has been mined for thousands of years, even as far back as the Neolithic Age. During the Roman Empire cinnabar was mined both as a pigment, and for its mercury content. To produce liquid mercury (quicksilver), crushed cinnabar ore is roasted in rotary furnaces.

Also, Quantities of liquid mercury ranging from 90 to 600 grams have been recovered from elite Maya tombs (100-700AD). This mercury may have been used in bowls as mirrors for divinatory purposes.

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am 7. The layout of the pyramids and temples is a scaled down model of our solar system with accurate distances between temples, including a diverted canal along the position of the asteroid belt and including a temple on a mountain top which must represent a planet beyond Pluto. This planet has recently been proposed based on gravitational movements of Pluto but hasn't been found yet.
Bearing in mind the urban layout of Teotihuacan described under #2 above, and that our solar system is a 3-dimensional object with various planes and ellipses of orbits of each planet, I'd say that's total balderdash.

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am All the above seem to be beyond the capabilities of early human civilization, hence the suggestion of aliens. How is it that similar structures are found all over Earth? It could be that humans were travelling all over the Earth at these times, but did they have the required celestial knowledge?
Well the "similar structures" did not occur at the same time. As already stated, the period of pyramid-building in Egypt had already ended before the period in the Mesoamerican area. So aliens had to be busy coming back to tell yet more dunces how to build pyramids. I just wonder why the aliens didn't instruct early humans about steel and concrete so that tall structures could be built more easily. I mean, early humans must have been really dumb-struck when advised to haul huge blocks of stone around without wheels.

John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am The suggestion is that pyramids were creating some sort of electrical energy, either for communication across the Earth or to power UFOs. The power we can detect in pyramids is minute, but perhaps there is a form of energy we haven't detected yet.
Well if I wanted to communicate round the earth, I'd build a generator next to a fast-flowing river, and use Morse Code to switch a CW amplifier (using thermionic valves) through a horn antenna and use tropospheric scattering. All I'd need is someone to make fine copper wire and quality glass. But then in comparison to aliens I'm just a human idiot. Regarding Pyramids themselves read this
John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:49 am Pyramids in several places have been found to be several pyramids laid one on another like Russian dolls. Teotihuacan has five layers. Perhaps the increases in mass increase the energy created. I think the aliens, if they exist, must have been incredibly patient while humans laboriously and slowly built all these monuments.
THOSE RUSSIANS

What we need to bear in mind through all of this, is that it's really a clash of creationist versus evolutionist theories. Creationist theories either rely on God(s) creating humans or aliens assisting humans (in which case, who assisted the aliens). Alternatively, and more obvious to me, the human species evolved its technology in the beginning in very small and long incremental steps. There are then several key steps e.g. Hindu-arabic numeral system 500 BC,
Euclid's Elements 300 BC, Galileo, Isaac Newton, Darwin, Dmitri Mendeleev, which came about because of work done by other people before or round the same time as each published their main works. The time between successive steps has been getting shorter and shorter

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

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John-B wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:14 am If you ignore all the suggestions that pyramids were some sort of energy generator, what about the knowledge to place pyramids and temples in positions corresponding to the distances of planets which humans couldn't know? Just coincidence? What would have been the purpose of pools of mercury and layers of mica? I think it is more likely that we were visited by aliens in the distant past than from the 1950s to the present day, but there's no proof yet.

As previously, there is no evidence that stands up to full scientific scrutiny, to corroborate any of these pseudo-scientific notions. Indeed, I'd speculate that they're directly or indirectly related to stuff hidden in Scientology.

I'm not saying that an alien craft hasn't ever passed by (or landed) but what I would say is that, based on the distances involved, it's going to be an AI drone, with the ability to assimilate the planets' orbits as it closes, select the earth as best bet, go into orbit, photograph it, then transmit the images back to the central AI system that has evolved somewhere in this galaxy. There would be no other reason.

But for the sake of scrutiny, let's examine the most likely outcome of a craft carrying human-looking aliens landing on the planet say 5,000 years ago. it may sound strange at first, but a good example is what happened to ARMINIUS ~18 BC to 21 AD.
Born a prince of the Germanic Cherusci tribe, Arminius was made a hostage of the Roman Empire as a child. Raised in Rome, he was drafted into the Roman military at an early age, during which he was granted Roman citizenship and became a Roman knight. After serving with distinction in the Great Illyrian Revolt, he was sent to Germania to aid the local governor Publius Quinctilius Varus in completing the Roman conquest of the Germanic tribes. While in this capacity, Arminius secretly plotted a Germanic revolt against Roman rule, which culminated in the ambush and total destruction of three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest

In the aftermath of the battle, Arminius fought retaliatory invasions by the Roman general Germanicus in the battles of Pontes Longi, Idistaviso, and the Angrivarian Wall, and deposed a rival, the Marcomanni king Maroboduus. Germanic nobles, afraid of Arminius' growing power, assassinated him in AD 21. He was remembered in Germanic legends for generations afterwards. The Roman historian Tacitus designated Arminius as the liberator of the Germanic tribes and commended him for having fought the Roman Empire to a standstill at the peak of its power.


i.e. Arminius greatly assisted the Germanic tribes from being assimilated by the Roman Empire, but was then killed by the very people he assisted.

Choose any time in human history, anywhere on the planet, and go back in time equipped with whatever arsenal of firepower you want, and think of how you would briefly change the course of human history, and then what would happen to you when your firepower had gone. For this very reason, it would be unwise of any humanoid life-form to have tried the same thing in the past.

Note also that if there was any brief opportunity for interbreeding, if it were to achieve any substantial change, then the DNA record would be there e.g. Various estimates exist for the proportion of Neanderthal DNA in humans: 1–4% in modern Eurasians (possibly as high as 8%), and 1.8–2.4% in modern Europeans, and 2.3–2.6% in modern East Asians

btw if you missed it in my previous post I reckon it's THOSE RUSSIANS

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

Post by John-B »

You've done a lot of research, Brian. It goes to show that early human civilisations and our present one have amazing imagination, inventing Gods and myths, and more recently the whole UFO and alien scenario.

It seems that ancient civilisations had more imagination than common sense and logic. Why would they build huge pyramids with chambers inside and then leave them empty and bury their leaders somewhere else? But mysticism and religions have always seemed to be more nonsensical than logical.

I've always thought that if UFOs and aliens ever did visit us that there would be some rubbish left behind, just as we have left rubbish on planets already, but we haven't found any. I also think that any visits would be by non-biological machines rather than human-like biological beings.

I still love the stories even if they have no foundation.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

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Depending on which pyramid and where, there are at least 3 reasons why a tomb is now empty
1. the priests robbed the tomb before sealing it (mostly so as to re-cycle the gold)
2. either the priests or tomb robbers broke into the tomb soon after it was sealed, often using a different route into the tomb
3. priests broke into the tomb much later, for the same reason as in #1, but only when they realised that gold was in short supply

The reason why Tutankhamun's tomb was not empty was because it was in such a position that a flood piled a large amount of boulders/debris into the area, which deterred priests/tomb robbers from looking for it.

Note that by the time of Tutankhamun, pyramids had gone out of fashion.

Regarding remnants of alien/AI craft, had they visited before recent history, it's extremely unlikely that it will be found on this planet. Reasons are
1. it would burn up as the orbit decayed
2. if not the above, it would most likely crash into the sea (MH370 springs to mind)
3. if not the above, it would crash onto land and, like all archeological remains, disappear deeper and deeper as the soil level rises

The only hope of finding any remains, would be in a glacier. The 1947 BSAA Avro Lancastrian Star Dust accident is a good example. It disappeared in 1947 on starting to make an approach to Santiago (Chile) and several extensive searches found no remains. The thing that made this so unique was the last message sent in Morse Code, which was STENDEC, prompting many theories for the message and the plane's disappearance. Then in 1998 parts of the wreckage began to appear at the foot of a glacier, carried there underneath the glacier over a period of 50 years.

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Re: UFOs & Aliens

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Always a joy to read along.

In Switzerland we have a guy called Erich von Däniken
He published books about Aliens and so forth. In 2002 he even opened a theme park called "Mystery Park" near Interlaken which unfortunately went bankrupt.
It was interesting to go there as he mixed fiction with science to support his thesis. All done in then state-of-the-art multimedia presentations.
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Re: UFOs & Aliens

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Brian-H wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:57 pm Depending on which pyramid and where, there are at least 3 reasons why a tomb is now empty
1. the priests robbed the tomb before sealing it (mostly so as to re-cycle the gold)
2. either the priests or tomb robbers broke into the tomb soon after it was sealed, often using a different route into the tomb
3. priests broke into the tomb much later, for the same reason as in #1, but only when they realised that gold was in short supply
Some experts disagree. Underground tombs had mummies and were decorated but most pyramids have been found to be almost completely clean and had no decoration. The great pyramid had a rough sarcophagus but was otherwise completely clean. Pyramids may have been robbed, but the mummies have never been found anywhere else.
The great pyramid has three chambers and many tunnels, what were they all for?
It seems highly unlikely that all that work would be just for an empty sarcophagus. The lowest chamber of the Great Pyramid shows signs of water damage as it was under the water table at some tome and the ducts from the Queen's chamber show signs of chemicals being poured down them. Why?
Giza-chambers-and-shafts02.jpg
This https://curiosmos.com/3-startling-reaso ... ot-a-tomb/ website says
This means that we have at least five pyramids, built supposedly as tombs, that contained no mummies whatsoever. Isn’t that strange? Yes, it could be very well that the mummies were really stolen from their interior, but many consider it doubtful, arguing that the mummies were probably never there in the first place.
Brian-H wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:57 pm Regarding remnants of alien/AI craft, had they visited before recent history, it's extremely unlikely that it will be found on this planet. Reasons are
1. it would burn up as the orbit decayed
2. if not the above, it would most likely crash into the sea (MH370 springs to mind)
3. if not the above, it would crash onto land and, like all archeological remains, disappear deeper and deeper as the soil level rises
There are plenty of remains of early civilisations 10000 years ago and if UFOs and aliens had visited around that time you would expect some remains to show, but there are none, so I tend to agree that UFOs and aliens have never been here in the last 10000 years. No evidence has been found in rocks or mining operations that they came millions of years ago, but I live in hope!

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